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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am of the perspective that just about ANYTHING (sugar, essential oils, etc) you put in the hive has an influence on internal chemistry and biology. Obviously. Not interested in encouraging senseless use of so called "treatments." However, I attribute some of my losses (and on top of that about 1/2 surviving colonies coming out of winter with a very small cluster) over the last 2 years to not having a grip on Nosema C. Yes, I have a microscope now and have been testing. I have found Fumidil treatments at label recommended dosage to be infective (against Nosema C) in my operation. As have others.

I am particularly interested in the use of HBH by the Adee operation, this is something I had not heard until reading this (second and 3rd link)

PDF link(s) http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/2010/drench%202010.pdf

more detail: "CCD related" Interesting mention of the Addee operation is the only reason I link to this... http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/2010/CCD.pdf


Ross Conrad Bee Culture article 2010: http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/2010/Conrad%20Article.pdf
The dosage mentioned is upto 4 tsp/ quart or about 40:1 or 50:1

Randy Oliver also did a small trial comparing treatments, (fairly inconclusive results) however I believe he used HBH per label instructions.


Your thoughts and any further information or actual side by side comparisons where a control was used would be greatly appreciated...

Let's try to leave the anecdotal evidence and also discussion of Fumidil drench for another thread.
thanks!
 

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Hmm I was hoping to see some interest and responses to this post. I myself and interested also. :scratch:
 

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How do you "drench" the bees with HBH, just pour it directly on the frames or perhaps pour it between the frames? I don't know but would like to try this product.
 

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Was this the report that said "presumed to be Nosema C." ?? If so, how can they make a statement with out knowing for sure? If my memory is right, you need an elaborate test to tell the difference. So which Nosema where they really treating? Did Randy Oliver also note difficulties in getting consistent spore reading? I wonder if the inaccuracy of the measurements approaches the differences observed. Did I see a report some where else that plain feeding had almost the same effect as numerous EO, including HBH?

The spraying of HBH syrup in the hives when supers where on made me question if NONE got into the honey, They should add a harmless UV marker to the HBH for a test, and see if the honey glows. I am not sure I would want to apply anything flavored or antibiotic when there are supers on, but if it is "crisis" why was it not noticed sooner?

Thanks to those putting in the effort to find a solution(no pun intended).

Roland
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I think that I should add a few notes here:

-No one is suggesting a "drench" of HBH straight out of the bottle. This "method" is a stronger than label recommended hbh & sugar water mixture sprayed on the bees (between frames from top of box) using a garden sprayer, syringe, etc.

-I personally have not used much HBH because I felt adding queen pheromone (lemongrass oil) to a hive could disrupt communication and hive processes for which we have very little understanding of...

-If has become obvious (suppliers now offer copy cat products) that many people are buying it and feeding it to bees heavily - mainly to get the bees to take more syrup or take syrup more quickly. But also for claimed "health" benefits...


Roland, I recognize your concern, it is simple to tell the difference between N Apis and N Ceranae, I think this was only really an issue before everyone was aware of Nosema C (and didn't yet know what to look for). I am personally not seeing any N Apis when I look at samples under a microscope myself, and this is what I hear from across the country that N Apis is not an issue.
-No one should really be suggesting treatments with supers on...period.
- Here is Randy Oliver's small test as mentioned above: http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com/index.php?id=63&option=com_content&task=view He has plenty of other Nosema sampling info on the site, and yes getting "consistent spore readings" can be an issue, but with CONSISTENT sampling practices (where you are collecting the bees you are testing) and large enough sample size (number of bees per sample) this is not an issue.


-For those interested a search of the BEE-L archives over the last month may turn up some semi-relevant information in the discussions regarding Fumidil drench, etc


Basically, here is the theory: The ingredients (lemongrass oil, spearmint oil) may be effective against viruses and/or Nosema, especially in larvae, brood, young bees...

Interestingly, there has been quite a bit of research on EO's (essential oils) however, most of it was strictly focused on Varroa...

unrelated, but thymol (different from essential oil of thyme, which also could be potentially useful along with oregano oil) in syrup has some promise against Nosema C also...

- I think it is important that people not just start adding these essential oils, etc blindly. In some cases the recommended (from online "recipes") dosages are approaching the LD50. At a VERY MINIMUM it is always a good idea to try something out on a couple of hives before you blindly to apply to your whole operation!
 

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Pardon my ignorance, but exactly how do you tell the difference between Nosema A. and Nosema c. spores?

Did I not download a Pdf file showing HBH sprayed into a hives repeatedly with numerous supers on? It showed up as Drench 2010.pdf

Roland
 

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Hi,
there was a thread about this a month or so ago. It didn't run very long either.

For one hive, make 1 cup of 1:1, with one tsp hbh.
Pour over bees in hive.
 

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Just a hint, Fumigilin-B can increase your honey production by 1000%. I would use it even if it is not effective on Nosema C.
 

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"Was this the report that said "presumed to be Nosema C." ?? If so, how can they make a statement with out knowing for sure? If my memory is right, you need an elaborate test to tell the difference. So which Nosema where they really treating?" Roland

Most of the recent disease surveys I have seen show that Nosema C. has nearly completely displaced Nosema A. Nosema ceranae is now the dominant strain of Nosema. It is a reasonably safe bet that if one has Nosema, it is Nosema ceranae, so from a management standpoint, odds are that one needs to be prepared to deal with Nosema C. at any time.

"Nosema ceranae is a worldwide parasite of honey bees that has shown dramatic range expansion in recent years. N. ceranae levels can be quantified using qPCR with both ribosomal and protein-coding genes, and we are using these techniques along with histology to clarify the interactions between this pathogen and bee hosts. An analysis of honey bee samples collected between 1995 and 2007 from 12 U.S. states showed that N. ceranae has surpassed congener N. apis as the predominant microsporidian infection of A. mellifera in the U. S. Tissue tropism of N. ceranae in the host was quite different from that of N. apis. Specifically, while N. apis is largely confined to the gut epithelium, N. ceranae was found not only in the primary infection site, the midgut, but also in the hypopharyngeal glands, salivary glands, Malpighian tubules and fat body. The complex biological features and disease importance of N. ceranae in honey bees invite further research. New tools for measuring gene expression and an effort to sequence and annotate the N. ceranae genome should help clarify the means by which this microsporidian affects honey bee health, and the counter-defenses used by bees." https://www.ent.iastate.edu/sip/2008/node/417

I have even seen some studies where they were having difficulty even locating samples of Nosema a because N ceranae was so predominant.
 

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JBJ - that may be true, but how do you know for certain, which Nosema you have? Unless it is positively identified, it is just a guess????

Roland
 

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Yes, I have a microscope now and have been testing. I have found Fumidil treatments at label recommended dosage to be infective (against Nosema C) in my operation. As have others.
could you provide your spore counts for n.c. that the bees had when you started? I've found it effective if you don't wait too long(lower counts) but at higher counts its not effective because they don't take the fumidil fast enough, just haven't found exactly what that count is yet? thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
"The spores are seen as ovals, about 3 microns by 5 microns. N. apis spores tend to look like “racetrack” ovals : flat on the sides and round at the ends. N. ceranae spores are more almond shaped, and slightly smaller. However, there is wide variance in shape among the spores, so we cannot rely entirely on what we see." source: http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documents/CAPArticle6.html Somewhere on the web I have seen a side by side comparison and I have been going by that image. Can not find it at the moment. Sorry to say that it was "simple" to tell between the 2, when indeed it is not. This is not a concern of mine.

My personal feeling is that treating with fumagilin B (actually not a true antibiotic, Nosema is not bacteria, nosema is a protozoa...right?) over the last 15 years has done an great job on Nosema A. It seems POSSIBLE that we have been selecting for Nosema C that is (somewhat) resistant to fumagilin. Remember Nosema C has been in the US since around '95, probably earlier. We did not even know about it until a few years ago...

wildbranch, I do not have with me at this time, I will try to post asap

csbees- I agree with your recommendation and if my income depended on honey production I am sure I would even more strongly, however, it is also VERY important for us to have other potential weapons against nosema... If you think of mites, weren't the days great (actually I wouldn't know, pretty young) when you could use just a single product year after year and get 100% drop?

thanks for the input so far
 

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My personal feeling is that treating with fumagilin B (actually not a true antibiotic, Nosema is not bacteria, nosema is a protozoa...right?)

Antibiotic was originally coined to refer to bacteria that kill other bacteria. However, the word comes from anti (against) bios (life) so can cover a broad range of substances.

The terms antiseptic, antibacterial, antibiotic, antimicrobial, generally refer to what is being treated with them. Fumagillin is derived from a fungus, and was tried on bacteria originally, so it was called an antibiotic.

All of these agents are just poisons. Bacteria, fungi, plants and animals all produce poisons and they can be used for a variety of things. In some cases they are poisonous, not in others.

Alcohol is a good example. If you use it as a disinfectant, it's antibiotic. If you drink it, it's a recreational drug. In excess, it is a fatal poison.

By the way, I agree that it is a big mistake to douse your hives with essential oils on the assumption that "they can't hurt" or "they might help".

First off, not all EOs are the same and many are toxic. Thymol has been used as a disinfectant for centuries; many spices are "antibiotic".

As I have written about in the most recent Bee Journal, the internal communication of the colony is highly regulated using odors. Dumping strong smelling stuff into the hive can't be good, especially if the substances are similar to their natural odors.

Best case scenario is you screw their communication up for a few days. Worse case is you contaminate your honey with EOs and make somebody sick.

Also, there are a lot of reports coming out that Nosema ceranae does not cause heavy bee losses, and can go away on its own. I would avoid fumagillin, this is heavy chemotherapy. I would avoid lemongrass oil, it's a waste of money.

Just my two cents, take it or leave it.

PLB
 

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An interesting and informative study that appears to show it is a viable alternative to Fumidil. I don't think it is an endorsement for the prophylactic use of Nozevit or anything else for that matter. Personally I think a more meaningful study would be of treated vs. untreated hives through the course of an entire year preferably with very low infestations at the beginning of the test. All these treatments are expensive and I know they are often used out of the belief that a Nosema treatment is something a prudent beekeeper must do to ward off future problems because there are so few treatment windows. So whats a beekeeper to do? In any case its nice to know of something that appears effective and probably has fewer downside risks.
 
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