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Discussion Starter #961 (Edited)
wild I almost offered that as a "certification " method
great minds think alike.

GG
Exactly GG.

A seller could produce a representative morpho-signature for his Carni's for sale stating no less than 75% of the bees in the packages can be in the classified as Carni (if someone bothers to run the wing scanning and check).

These kinds of things should be out and in the open.
Morpho analysis is simple enough and cheap enough (like free) and good enough for general use.

Anymore any bee is called a Carni and people just take it as a fact.
Yellow "Carni's" are all over the place. :)
The wing scans will produce 50% Carni at best when the yellow "Carni" is verified (IF that), and yet people still sell them labeled as such.
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Morpho analysis is simple enough and cheap enough (like free) and good enough for general use
witch does beg the question, why is it not being used, especially in AHB areas
 

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Aylett, VA 10-frame double deep Langstroth
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Thanks guys, I just downloaded the IdentiFly program. Now if I could figure out HOW to use it. Printed off the instructions but have not read them yet. Instructions? Pshaw!
 

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Discussion Starter #964
witch does beg the question, why is it not being used, especially in AHB areas
It sounds complicated (UNTIL you go for it and give it an honest try).
Well, takes a little bit of reading too up front (not for everyone).
:)

I meant to learn it for a while - finally got around to it over this X-Mas break.
So learning by doing.
 

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Discussion Starter #965
Thanks guys, I just downloaded the IdentiFly program. Now if I could figure out HOW to use it. Printed off the instructions but have not read hem yet. Instructions? Pshaw!
Here you go!

In fact, I mean to compare two-three morpho-analysis tools side-by-side.
Now that I have them I should.
 

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Discussion Starter #967
ya... but it also feels like something that could easily be made in to a cell phone app!!
It maybe.
But from what I found so far - quality wing scanning is the most important step for the accuracy.
Unsure a cell phone can do that.
Decent optics/scanner is hard to fake.
But also, a USB microscope is only 30-40 bucks and CAN be plugged into a phone.
So - maybe.

However, working on a decent monitor is so MUCH MORE ergonomic than on a dinky phone screen. I still value my eyes - gets tiresome quickly when land-marking several hundred points.
 

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Aylett, VA 10-frame double deep Langstroth
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So what is the best way to image the forewing. I don't think the cell phone camera is going to work too well. Do I need a microscope that can take pictures? Once the image is in and I set the landmarks, does it take its own measurements or do I need a very accurate set of calipers?

I see you added an edit. Me too. What do you think of this one?

 

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Discussion Starter #969
So what is the best way to image the forewing. I don't think the cell phone camera is going to work too well. Do I need a microscope that can take pictures? Once the image is in and I set the landmarks, does it take its own measurements or do I need a very accurate set of calipers?
JW, I tried my existing 1200DPI scanner and.... it works OK.
But could be better.
So I am thinking to retry the scanning step using my existing Nikon in macro-mode.
Then will compare the analysis outcomes.
If the results are close enough, a basic scanner is good enough for home use.

If buying a scanner, get 2400 DPI or better.

Scanner is much more convenient and efficient - obviously.
A decent camera + camera stand (or a similar hack) should work too.
USB microscope works too.
For small scale production - not a big deal.

Once you set the land-marks - you are done with the hard work.

Few mouse clicks in the morpho-tool - and study the results.

One good thing about my morpho-tools I got handy ("Breed by Wings" and MorphoXL) - only takes 8 points per a wing.
This is unlike the IdentiFly - this one takes much more work (but maybe fancier analysis IF that matters for you).
 

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Aylett, VA 10-frame double deep Langstroth
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I like the idea of getting real close with the sub-species. I sell nucs and people ask, "what kind of bees are they?" Right now I just tell them mutts with Caucasian characteristics. I would like to know for sure, especially since I intend to start a breeding program for queens.
 
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Well, I pulled the trigger and bought the USB microscope. Had some money from a gift card on the account so I am out of pocket about $12. Will see if it gives me a good image or not. If not, I'll get something better and give this one to my granddaughter.
 

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Discussion Starter #972
I like the idea of getting real close with the sub-species. I sell nucs and people ask, "what kind of bees are they?" Right now I just tell them mutts with Caucasian characteristics. I would like to know for sure, especially since I intend to start a breeding program for queens.
IF I am to sell bees, I'd want to know myself what I am selling for sure (and would provide the info to the buyers as a bonus for their business). And also to stand out among all the mutt sellers out there. :)

BTW, per the documentation I read so far - takes 24 wings to accurately identify a makeup of a colony.
So, per the same doc recommendation, I go for 30 wings per a colony.
This gives some room for failed identifications and still produces good enough set to profile a colony.

Instead of going around and doing my traditional X-Mas survivor counting, I chose to spend the holiday time learning morpho-analysis.
Hopefully soon enough will get out and collect more dead bees and do more morpho-runs.
 

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Discussion Starter #973
I see you added an edit. Me too. What do you think of this one?
Dunno, JW.
Am learning myself too.
Guess at this pricing, just get the darn thing and try it.
 

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I just tell them mutts with Caucasian characteristics
and we may not get any better then mutts with mostly x

but hibreds will likly be a issue, as will the very likly unique to north america alleles

Ie by the look of things US itialans are still itialians even after all theses years, but have some gentnics that are thier own
 

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Actually won't be too bad. Almost all my colonies are descendants of a single swarm I caught back in 2017. That colony is the one I am most interested in as it had the lowest mite count from my little experiment and is one of the ones I intend to use as a breeder. Initially, the queens were maroon and the drones jet black.

The work hive as I refer to it is clearly Italians based on their coloration and habits. 46-47 degrees out with strong sunshine and nary a bee was flying. The bees at home will fly down to about 45 degrees. I am hesitant to bring the work hive home and dilute the genetics I have established here. Already have the site registered as an out apiary, may just leave them there.
 

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Discussion Starter #976
and we may not get any better then mutts with mostly x
Certainly so.

Unlike in remote Siberian places (there they were able to find ~100% AMM) - we are screwed here.
But hey, ability to print out a sheet that shows your bees are 75% Caucasian is worth something.

Certainly for me, if I find some bees with 20% AMM or AMS - that would be cool.
OR - if my current "breeder" survives - for sure I wanna know her morpho-profile (whatever it is).
 

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Discussion Starter #977
I pulled the trigger and bought the USB microscope.
1.9. When working with a USB microscope, it is recommended to set the frame size of 1600x1200, which corresponds to a resolution of approximately 6000 dpi.
 

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Getting the morpho-analysis tool to work was the most undertaking as it was not setup to work in the English system. Thankfully, I know a little about programming and such.
Count me as one impressed. I have read about this type of analysis but assumed it was relegated to research institutions- based on your reporting it looks like anyone with the gumption and tech savvy can pull this off on a hobbyist level. I'll look forward to reading your updates as you refine this process. Good work.
 

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It appears that to have any chance of getting accurate results, one needa to be very precise in placing the landmarks. The two images provided are different sub species yet vary only slightly.
 

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Discussion Starter #980
It appears that to have any chance of getting accurate results, one needa to be very precise in placing the landmarks. The two images provided are different sub species yet vary only slightly.
For sure.

Hence, the original designers of the morpho tools I am learning/testing BOTH are very clear - the correct scanning/landmarking is the KEY.

Last night I played with my Nikon in macro-setting.
Conclusion - I will redo all my scans using the camera.

While it takes some hassle vs. using my cheap 1200 DPI scanner (much faster) - the imaging results are significantly better.
So, it is the macro photography for me and complete do-over of my original analysis.
 
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