Beesource Beekeeping Forums banner

161 - 180 of 219 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
249 Posts
Discussion Starter · #161 ·
Here are some pics of a worker. I can get better angles and stuff , but I just ran out there real quick between my boys and a little project I got cooking.
View attachment 62663 View attachment 62664
Looks like the worker lost her hair from something, rather than it being natural... It is hard for me to tell what they look like without the rings of hair. The abdomen looks narrow to me, like Carniolan bees. But do any of your colonies have dark thorax haired drones like the one in your avatar photo? What state are you in Struttinbuck? Thank you for the photos!

Here are Spanish black bees (Apis mellifera iberica) with discoidal wing shift veining that is towards zero it looks:
 

·
Registered
Small Cell Nucs
Joined
·
377 Posts
Looks like the worker lost her hair from something, rather than it being natural... It is hard for me to tell what they look like without the rings of hair. The abdomen looks narrow to me, like Carniolan bees. But do any of your colonies have dark thorax haired drones like the one in your avatar photo? What state are you in Struttinbuck? Thank you for the photos!

Here are Spanish black bees (Apis mellifera iberica) with discoidal wing shift veining that is towards zero it looks:
As far as coloration, I have a couple hives that are 75 percent the ones from the video. And they are like generic Caucasion? Not like Jason Bragg or Sue Colby Caucasion.
I didnt notice any drones yesterday ,but will keep a good watch out. It wont be long now.
I'm in zone 6A in West Virginia. But the Queen came from a guy in Tennesee.
Winters Apiary.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
249 Posts
Discussion Starter · #163 ·
As far as coloration, I have a couple hives that are 75 percent the ones from the video. And they are like generic Caucasion? Not like Jason Bragg or Sue Colby Caucasion.
I didnt notice any drones yesterday ,but will keep a good watch out. It wont be long now.
I'm in zone 6A in West Virginia. But the Queen came from a guy in Tennesee.
Winters Apiary.
Caucasian bee drones have dark thorax hairs, too, like German Black bees do. Struttinbuck, was the dark drone in your avatar photo from a Caucasian queen from Winter's Apiaries? I asked Winter's Apiaries about how to identify Caucasian bees, and I was told by the dark thorax haired drones (although, some other subspecies of bees have dark thorax hairs on drones, too).
 

·
Registered
Small Cell Nucs
Joined
·
377 Posts
Caucasian bee drones have dark thorax hairs, too, like German Black bees do. Struttinbuck, was the dark drone in your avatar photo from a Caucasian queen from Winter's Apiaries? I asked Winter's Apiaries about how to identify Caucasian bees, and I was told by the dark thorax haired drones (although, some other subspecies of bees have dark thorax hairs on drones, too).
Yes, I got 3 packages from him last spring. So if thats the case, I will keep an eye out on my other colonies. I have 3 Russian colonies, some Micheal Palmer ( carniolans) some maulers and a couple mutts.
And I love to get those real closeup pics of the landing boards. And if you can believe it, the photo of the black workers are from a galaxy S7 active! :)
I'm impressed with these phones now!
So are the German Black Bees shorter bodied?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
249 Posts
Discussion Starter · #165 · (Edited)
Struttinbuck, I am not sure because I haven't really measured the bee's abdomens before, but the German black bees do look more stocky from their broader abdomen, I think.

Some strains of Spanish black bees may have more ordinary looking smaller abdomens than the broad abdomen German black bees. Apis Mellifera or Iberian black bee, the native species of the area... (Spanish black bee photo from Northern Spain), Reina en plena puesta..

All our colonies this year have dark thorax haired drones. They don't seem to be Tunisian in looks, so that has made me think that our colonies have a larger percentage of German black than I thought. I may have been missing the Spanish black bees as just hybrids of German black bees, but are actually closer to pure. They are aggressive and do wet cappings on their honey, which matches Spanish black bees. But the majority of our colonies that I remember do wet cappings anyway.

I have looked at videos of some strains of Tunisian bees (aka Tellian bees, Punic bees), and this strain has broad abdomens like German black bees from the best I can tell:
(skip to 2:40)

So I am not sure whether these smaller abdomen "Spanish black bees" are not a strain of Tunisian. I have videos that I took this week that I will upload of them (I don't have the camera right now).

Tunisian bee strain that does dry cappings on honey:
(skip to 1:53 in video to see dry cappings)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
249 Posts
Discussion Starter · #167 ·
Cape bees (Apis mellifera capensis) have thin rings of hair on their abdomens, too. Cape bees seem to propilize a lot. They look similar to Asian honeybees (Apis cerana) in the photos:

Article about Tellian honeybees by Brother Adam who made the Buckfast bee:
In the article it says that the Tunisian bee was first named Apis mellifera unicolor var. intermissa. They thought that the Tunisian bee was a hybrid of the Malagasy bee and European bees:
"The indigenous honeybee of North Africa is known by a number of names. Naturalists called it Apis mellifera unicolor var. intermissa. The zoologist H. von Buttel-Reepen gave it the sub-title intermissa, for he thought it was an intermediate species between the single-coloured black bee of Madagascar and the variety lehzeni of north-west Germany and Scandinavia. Whether this supposition is correct, further research will determine. However, since 1906 this race has been known in scientific literature as intermissa."

In the article it also writes about the longevity of the Tunisian bees. At least one strain of Tunisian like bees that we have in our colonies here in North Carolina seem always to have healthy, vigorous workers without much aging bees going bald. I have thought maybe they had better longevity than the other kinds of bees?
"The fecundity of the Tellian is remarkable. But extreme fertility is of no avail unless it is coupled with a high degree of stamina, and it is in this very quality that the Tellian surpasses every other race. Moreover stamina is the source of a whole series of desirable traits, longevity, hardiness, wing-power, etc. Observations made in 1953 lead me to believe that the Tellian is the longest-lived bee. I also noted that it is active at temperatures at which no other honeybees would dare to venture forth, not even Carniolans."

I thought I was noticing narrow abdomen queens for our Tunisian like bee colonies!
"The queens are more uniform in colour than those of any European race. They are jet-black, long and slender and very pointed — quite unlike the plump Italian or ponderous Carniolan queens in shape."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
249 Posts
Discussion Starter · #168 · (Edited)
How about a few closeup pics of your bees?
AR1:
Absolutely! My camera isn't a very good one. Do you prefer photos or videos? Videos are easier for me because I don't have to sit still to take a good photo. And it is hard to do that with large gloves on. 20210401_000520.JPG
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
249 Posts
Discussion Starter · #169 ·
A different light and solid colored strain of Tunisian, I think:


These are more aggressive from my experience of other colonies like these. The translucent, narrow abdomen strain of tunisian like bees that we have are actually gentle.

I need to go home. I will post more videos later! Goodbye AR1.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
274 Posts
A lot of cool information since the last time I looked at this thread! :)

Side note: I'm planning to go up on Friday to my neighbor's tree where I highly suspect A.m.m. have been living for at least 4 years. Last time I was there it had gotten to 53F and they weren't flying. But this was probably Dec/Jan and the weather had been cold. The woods was still chilly and the entrance is almost due north. I'm hoping they are still there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,242 Posts
Thanks. It would be interesting to see the results of genotyping. Everything else is just guesswork. My own bees are generally dark, some with solid black abdomens, though the majority have faint stripes. The queens are solid dark brown and the drones are generally black or dark brown. Source was a swarm, so no idea of the background. It'll be fun to see what this years splits produce.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
249 Posts
Discussion Starter · #172 ·
Thanks. It would be interesting to see the results of genotyping. Everything else is just guesswork. My own bees are generally dark, some with solid black abdomens, though the majority have faint stripes. The queens are solid dark brown and the drones are generally black or dark brown. Source was a swarm, so no idea of the background. It'll be fun to see what this years splits produce.
That is interesting that you have a lot of dark bees. That probably means Italians are not dominant in your colonies. Do you have any videos or photos of the most dark colonies that you have?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
249 Posts
Discussion Starter · #173 ·
Now I am thinking there could be a few different strains of Tunisian bees here in our colonies in North Carolina... I used to think that possibly it was hybridization that caused some of the variations in some Tunisian like colonies we had in the past.

Here are some videos of Tunisian like bee in our colonies (some of these videos I have already posted here on this topic, but I am organizing them to strain of Tunisian the best I can tell):

First:
Colony #1
Colony #2
(?) Colony #3

Second:
Colony #1 Light colored bees August 2020
Colony #2 Tellian bees? North Carolina April 10th?
Colony #3 Thin banded strange bees

Third (Really a different strain or the same as or hybrid of First?)
These are almost as if they are slightly hybridized with German black because they could be all black, and might have slightly wide abdomen and solid colored, compared to the first translucent strain posted above. These might be what I have been thinking were Spanish black bees in this post:
Struttinbuck, I am not sure because I haven't really measured the bee's abdomens before, but the German black bees do look more stocky from their broader abdomen, I think.

Some strains of Spanish black bees may have more ordinary looking smaller abdomens than the broad abdomen German black bees. Apis Mellifera or Iberian black bee, the native species of the area... (Spanish black bee photo from Northern Spain), Reina en plena puesta..

All our colonies this year have dark thorax haired drones. They don't seem to be Tunisian in looks, so that has made me think that our colonies have a larger percentage of German black than I thought. I may have been missing the Spanish black bees as just hybrids of German black bees, but are actually closer to pure. They are aggressive and do wet cappings on their honey, which matches Spanish black bees. But the majority of our colonies that I remember do wet cappings anyway.

I have looked at videos of some strains of Tunisian bees (aka Tellian bees, Punic bees), and this strain has broad abdomens like German black bees from the best I can tell:
(skip to 2:40)

So I am not sure whether these smaller abdomen "Spanish black bees" are not a strain of Tunisian. I have videos that I took this week that I will upload of them (I don't have the camera right now).

Tunisian bee strain that does dry cappings on honey:
(skip to 1:53 in video to see dry cappings)
Sluggish build-up in Spring, but produce drones at the usual time as other colonies, so proportionately more drones than workers in early Spring. Propolizes a lot and are aggressive.

Colony #1 Honeybee colony August
(?) Colony #2 2020 February 24th #9
Colony #3 March 5th? 2021 bees
Colony #4 2020 February 25th Dark bees (Carniolan?) #2

Bear in mind that most of this I am uncertain of and I am doing a lot of guessing.


An interesting light colored colony that looked somewhat Tunisian. Hybridization caused light coloration?

This video is sort of what I have been thinking were the Spanish black bees with the smaller abdomens than German black bees:
And this I took recently:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,991 Posts
Haplo,
Just send me an envelope of your Black bees already.
What is the hold up? :)
If they are at least half-Mellifera, it will be easy to see.
Your videos are really not that helpful - just some dark bees. Many people have dark bees.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
249 Posts
Discussion Starter · #176 ·
Haplo,
Just send me an envelope of your Black bees already.
What is the hold up? :)
If they are at least half-Mellifera, it will be easy to see.
Your videos are really not that helpful - just some dark bees. Many people have dark bees.
Sorry, GregV. I intended to send you some dead bees of our German black bee like colonies, but I lost most of our hives last year, and so I have not been able to find a living colony. Now I think I found out that most of our colonies this year were actually Tunisian bees that did not have their abdomens' engorged. Now that the nectar is coming in stronger that the colonies have started drawing a little comb, the bees are more obviously Tunisian like. I will post some photos to compare the Tunisian like bees engorged with nectar and those without engorging in the same colony. It makes them look very different when they are fat with nectar or bee bread.

Would you be interested in analyzing for Tunisian bees? Right now most of our colonies are showing Tunisian bee traits (only 8-12 colonies left, but am multiplying now).

-Nathaniel Long
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
249 Posts
Discussion Starter · #180 ·
Here is a video of a line of Buckfast Saharan bees:
German black hybrids? They look similar to our Tunisian like bees from just a glance at the video. I thought Saharan bees had a more ordinary round abdomen, and Tunisian have a triangle abdomen.

And another video of Buckfast Saharan bees:
(skip to 5:47 and 11:07 to see the bees) These are more rounded abdomen, I think. But, they have thicker bands of hair. Are they hybridized with Italian?
 
161 - 180 of 219 Posts
Top