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I don't know anyone in Spain/Italy to ask for those particular wings (not to mention the wings should be trustworthy as true AMM wings).
In Russia I hardly know anyone either, but at least they post their wing data online (which include the index numbers that I could use).

The 8 point wing analysis is not precise enough to be sorting out AMMs from AMMs - that is not a right tool for the job.
It is only good enough to separate AMMs from the others as far as I know, like so:

View attachment 62013
GregV, do you think it would be a good idea to measure the tongue lengths of your bees that come up as high percentage Caucasica on the wing-morphometrixs? Caucasian bees are unusual in having long tongues. I have wondered about whether the bees coming up "Caucasica" in the wing morphometric tool are actually something else, like an Amm hybrid... I know that Amm genetics (or "M" lineage genetics) have been found here in the Southeast US, and I have heard about Thomas Seeley's feral bees in Ithaca, NY having a good percentage of Amm. So, it is hard to think Amm. would be so uncommon as is your experience with testing the wings of your local bees in Wisconsin.

Also, do you think hybridization could cause problems with the "negative" discoidal shift wing vein shape? Perhaps if the "negative" discoidal shift is a recessive trait, then it would be easily masked and not show up, even when close to pure Amm?

-Nathaniel Long
 

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I'd be interested in samples of pure Ligustica and/or Carnica if someone has any.
I am talking of pure enough grade - good enough to calibrate/verify the tools.
Not just kinda/sorta Italians/Carni - those are most likely mutts (useless for calibration).
are you east coast or west? Sue Colby West for Carnica And Jason Bragg East.
 

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Discussion Starter #23 (Edited)
GregV, do you think it would be a good idea to measure the tongue lengths of your bees that come up as high percentage Caucasica on the wing-morphometrixs? ...........

Also, do you think hybridization could cause problems with the "negative" discoidal shift wing vein shape? Perhaps if the "negative" discoidal shift is a recessive trait, then it would be easily masked and not show up, even when close to pure Amm?

-Nathaniel Long
Every single additional measurement is a hassle in itself.
I don't care to chase after every rabbit.
Rather would just become good at something useful and give it a try.

In theory, sure - every additional measurement is a data point IF done correctly and conforms to some known standards (if done incorrectly it is just noise and time wasted).

I am not ready to comment on the wings yet (DsA trends, etc)
Have two last datasets to measure for myself and then sit back and look at them.
And read some resources.

Indeed, Caucasica and Millefera are kind of close to each other vs. the Ligustica/Carnica - per the wing morphometry.
So, granted we here largely work with the hybrids (not pure bees), thinking I will be just using the most distinct reference groups: Mellifera, Caucasica, Ligustica, Carnica (as depicted).
Any more additional references/finer resolutions don't really add more clarity to the picture.

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Discussion Starter #24
Here is a sample that is suggestive of Caucasian mix by its Cubital Index distribution.
But the Hentel Index/Discoidal Anglel pull towards Ligustica/Carni.
So this one could be, indeed, a mix of Caucasian/Carni
These bees are of dark disposition too - suggestive of Caucasian/Carni mix.

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Discussion Starter #28 (Edited)
Like I said, MSL, 18-point wing landmarking is a very skill-dimending and slow project (what they refer to in the video).
Unless you are in academia, I don't see folks bother with it.
Good land-marking is a true skill and a challenge.

A couple nights ago I tried to landmark a wing set - wow - I could hardly do it because I was tired and it was late (and maybe just botched the data set anyway). Talking the simple 8-point landmarking, of course.

But this 18-point complication is really not needed IF you are simply trying to average out your indexes between few very main lineage groups - Mellifera (M), Caucasica (O), and Ligustica/Carnica (C) to see where your bee maybe landing.
I don't particularly look for Cyprian or Anatolian bees in my wings. :)
Looking for traces of Scutellata sounds interesting, but I'd leave it to some enthusiast.

Really, I am rather interested in documenting the main index (CI, DsA, HI) distributions for the bees that seem to do well - does not matter what they are. No particular need in identification of the possible underlying sub-species under the conditions of massive hybridization (though it is interesting and how the tools are conventionally setup - to try to find the underlying sub-species).

The real value (in my view) is about separating some particular hybrids from other particular hybrids based on some factual numerical data (in addition to the human observation data).
 

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Very interesting work Greg, And much appreciated.

I do wonder IF the VSH "trait" can be a learned trait or part of some brain feature. more memory for example.
Also M Bush mentions up to 800 different things living in a bee hive so some of these would be good and help with immunity and some like the Virus are bad.

I do believe the genetics can be derived from the wing analysis, however that is only 1 of perhaps several involved in bee health. And Mite resistance.

Even Apiary location seems relevant, hence moving a "TF capable bee" and it does not perform the same.

As always more data leads to more questions.

Keep up the approach, an expert in this area is needed IMO

GG
 

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Discussion Starter #30 (Edited)
Very interesting work Greg, And much appreciated.
..........
GG
Thanks GG.
There is tons to learn.
Yes, there are tons of variables.
Unfortunately, most of these go at the level of anecdotes (vs. hard factual data).
For example, I'd love to know few hard facts about M. Bush's bees as well as the surrounding situation - but don't hold much hope to ever hear of those.
:)

I got entire online community of morpometry folks (some are true experts) I am trying to follow.

Here are Russian enthusiasts about the true AMM and they do a lot of wing analysis.
The genetic analysis is expensive and you will not send in a bee sample "just because", but rather to confirm your already promising preliminary wing measurements.

Here found another good resource:

More from Ukraine:
 

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18-point wing landmarking is a very skill-dimending and slow project
look at the tool that lets you set 4 point and then auto populate the rest 😉
Too much for a hobbyist, mabey
 

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Discussion Starter #32 (Edited)
look at the tool that lets you set 4 point and then auto populate the rest 😉
Too much for a hobbyist, mabey
Give it a try and see for yourself.
LOL.

IMO, it does not pay to pursue the fine detail in pursuance for some endemic pure bees (in the US). They in the Euro keep looking for pure bees and this is where their focus is - to identify them! It is a valid project there - trying to restore some endemic bees best they can, for example. Even then, it is like stuffing the tooth paste back into the tube. :)

We in US have a different problem (with no endemic bees to speak of).
This is on-going formation of totaly new hybrids with totally new signatures (the same process as the one in the Primorsky region). Some of these new hybrids are worthwhile keeping - but their patterns need to be identified first, even if roughly.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
MSL, anyhow, thanks for the YT find.
The video is literally few hours old and is worthwhile watching anyway because it is touching many of the same relevant points/topics.
 

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GregV:

I finally finished watching the two excellent BIBBA presentations by Dr. Tolfilski that MSL linked to. I also took the opportunity to follow-up with him to inquire as to what, if any benefit he saw in morphometric analysis of hybrid bees.

After a bit of back-and-forth, I came to understand that he asserts that locally-adapted bees will develop a unique, and fairly consistent morphometric 'fingerprint' after sufficient time of not being inundated by imports. So while this may not be of direct benefit to you right now, it did underscore a few points that have been batted around on this subject recently, namely:

1. It would be expected that the combination of genetic background and environment would lead to a morphometric signature in locally-adapted stock that likely could be utilized in evaluating the 'pedigree' of a particular population.

2. The specific environment that the particular bee stock is raised in has an impact on the morphometry. As such, even if genetic swapping is occurring between the the Primorski lines, the fact that they are being reared and maintained in different regions of the country will have an impact on the morphometric signature.

On a more practical level (at least for us in North America), Dr. Tolfilski referenced the work that Newfoundland is doing to protect their locally-adapted stock as a possible way forward for us if ever we decided to get serious about allowing local-adaptation to take hold:

 

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Discussion Starter #35
Hey Russ,
I am prepping the morpho-signatures of my 2020 stock (mostly dead now).
Unlike the Adam Tolfilski and his Russian/Ukrainian counterparts' goals, I am not really looking to isolate anything half-pure.
This is not possible with the bees here and the crudeness of my work anyway.
But a rough idea what our bees are about should be put out.

I read this comments about "pure" Saskatraz bees and I all can do is - cringe.
Any pure-ish bees should have documented half-honest morpho and genetic signatures.
:)
 
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