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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Here is one free tool for honey bee wing morphological analysis.
It is called MorphoXL.

This is originating in Ukraine and developed and maintained by a guy mostly interested in the Ukrainian bee breeding (A.m.Sossimai)

Has English instructions generated via Google (so is expected to be somewhat crude, but still usable). Everything you need to get started with - in the PDF.

The tool is really nothing more than an Excel spreadsheet with some embedded code in it.

The URL points to a RAR file which can be downloaded and opened by most any archiving program that understands RAR format (WinZIP, WinRAR, etc)

 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
There is another Russian-only tool - "Breed by the Wings" - was developed a guy interested in pure AMM selection and breeding.
This tool was actually the prototype for the MorphoXL above - they have some differences in the analysis outcomes (not for me to judge which is more correct).
I am slowly working on making "Breed by the Wings" English-user usable eventually.
I like this tool better than then MorphXL and prefer it (but use both for cross-checking the analysis results).
 

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GregV:

I appreciate your work with this, and for your willingness to take the time to post it here for our use and discussion.

Russ
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Found this interesting article:

It points to another interesting product - CBeeWing (trial is free).
 

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Greg,

You had described such a program a few months ago (scan a wing, map the points) and somehow I landed on IdentiFly | DrawWing , the software being IdentiFly. This is a zip file. You unzip and run the executable. It's pretty sophisticated. I got the developer's info and sent him a bit of cash as this took some work. However, there was nothing anywhere asking for money. I think maybe this guy is a researcher/student in Poland.

I actually thought it was the one you were referring to then.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I actually thought it was the one you were referring to then.
I looked at IdentiFly and passed (and mentioned about it too).
Too complicated; too much work.
Even with 8 point (per a wing) analysis it takes much time already.
18 point analysis - no thanks.

Besides, what extra information the 18 point analysis will give me?
The the main three indexes of the 8 point analysis output are plenty information to chew on.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I'd be interested in samples of pure Ligustica and/or Carnica if someone has any.
I am talking of pure enough grade - good enough to calibrate/verify the tools.
Not just kinda/sorta Italians/Carni - those are most likely mutts (useless for calibration).
 

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I'd be interested in samples of pure Ligustica and/or Carnica if someone has any.
I am talking of pure enough grade - good enough to calibrate/verify the tools.
Not just kinda/sorta Italians/Carni - those are most likely mutts (useless for calibration).
GregV, do you think you could also get some wings of some A. m. mellifera from different regions, like the Spanish and Italian strains of German black bees? I was wondering whether they'd be slightly different in the wing veining from the Russian strain of Amm...

-Nathaniel Long
 

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Discussion Starter #9
GregV, do you think you could also get some wings of some A. m. mellifera from different regions, like the Spanish and Italian strains of German black bees? I was wondering whether they'd be slightly different in the wing veining from the Russian strain of Amm...

-Nathaniel Long
I don't know anyone in Spain/Italy to ask for those particular wings (not to mention the wings should be trustworthy as true AMM wings).
In Russia I hardly know anyone either, but at least they post their wing data online (which include the index numbers that I could use).

The 8 point wing analysis is not precise enough to be sorting out AMMs from AMMs - that is not a right tool for the job.
It is only good enough to separate AMMs from the others as far as I know, like so:

62013
 

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GregV, I found a photo (Європейська темна бджола — Вікіпедія) on the Ukrainian Wikipedia German black bee article that has wing veining shape that looks like the wing image on this website (A Comprehensive Characterization of the Honeybees in Siberia (Russia) | IntechOpen Figure 2) of "zero" discoidal shift, different from the wing image of "negative" discoidal shift. Sorry if it is hard to understand what I am saying, I don't know the terminology for wing veining.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
GregV, I found a photo (Європейська темна бджола — Вікіпедія) on the Ukrainian Wikipedia German black bee article that has wing veining shape that looks like the wing image on this website (A Comprehensive Characterization of the Honeybees in Siberia (Russia) | IntechOpen Figure 2) of "zero" discoidal shift, different from the wing image of "negative" discoidal shift. Sorry if it is hard to understand what I am saying, I don't know the terminology for wing veining.
I know exactly what you mean.
The wing on your picture is not looking like a commonly known AMM wing (negative DsA). Looks more like a Carni/Ligustica wing, just by a general look of it (zero to positive DsA).

However, a single index is not sufficient to make a call.
Here attaching a visual of Cubital indexes from my mutts (the extreme cases from one colony sample) - a couple of very much Millifera-like and a couple of very much Carnica-like.

62017
 

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GregV:

While all this stuff is above my pay grade, I do enjoy and appreciate you posting about your studies.

It is an interesting evaluation tool, and I will look forward to it hopefully yielding something of actionable benefit for you.

Keep up the good work-

Russ
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
GregV:

While all this stuff is above my pay grade, I do enjoy and appreciate you posting about your studies.

It is an interesting evaluation tool, and I will look forward to it hopefully yielding something of actionable benefit for you.

Keep up the good work-

Russ
The more I do these the more I realize - the morpho-tools (and the morpho-analysis as a whole) are great when trying to quickly isolate pure-enough breeds.
That was the whole original intent of this type of work.

Well, I am yet to see pure-enough breeds (granted I only the beginner, but the trends are becoming visible).
The real issue for the North American case - we deal with random hybrids left and right.
With few exceptions, I suspect there is no pure bee around here to speak of (outside of the marketing buzz, mis-information, and outright lies).

For example, there is no very obvious difference between almond bees and VSH (TM) bees.
They are roughly very similar hybrids of Carnica/Ligustica/Caucasica.
Maybe some clean sampling and tight statistical analysis can produce some significant differences which takes some sophistication.

Trying to wrap my head around looking at the data I get.
There is a need for totally different approach - identification and classification of certain hybrids (vs. the pure bees).
 

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With few exceptions, I suspect there is no pure bee around here to speak of (outside of the marketing buzz, mis-information, and outright lies).
GregV:

It would be interesting to see how the morphological analyses might compare if you looked at representative stock from various regions of the country, particularly from more rural and less horticulturally-intensive areas to see if these populations demonstrate significant variation versus what you suspect locally are cast-offs from migratory beekeeping operations.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
representative stock from various regions of the country,
What is exactly the "representative stock", Russ?
Such thing exists?
And who are those people who maintain this stock (not a small claim if to be done)?
:)
 

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What is exactly the "representative stock...
GregV:

I don't mean over much by this- strictly wondering- 'is the prevalent bee stock in my area (as an example) morphologically similar to your stock (as an example). If so, it supports the idea of a fairly monolithic admixture of genetics in the US.

If not, it might suggest regional genetic variation supporting a survival advantage in a specific setting, particularly when not overwhelmed by annual genetic imports.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
GregV:

I don't mean over much by this- strictly wondering- 'is the prevalent bee stock in my area (as an example) morphologically similar to your stock (as an example). If so, it supports the idea of a fairly monolithic admixture of genetics in the US.

If not, it might suggest regional genetic variation supporting a survival advantage in a specific setting, particularly when not overwhelmed by annual genetic imports.
Btw, if you have any per-annual surviving stock this spring, maybe we should measure them?
It should be 3-4 years you've been running them off chems, yes/no?
Why guess if we can just look at them.
 

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... maybe we should measure them?
It's a bet, GregV. Even better, why don't you plan a trip to Kentucky Lake for the first week in May and I'll send you home with some Kentucky feral stock to see how they fare in your harsh Wisconsin environment?
 

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Discussion Starter #19
It's a bet, GregV. Even better, why don't you plan a trip to Kentucky Lake for the first week in May and I'll send you home with some Kentucky feral stock to see how they fare in your harsh Wisconsin environment?
Well, that is some trip from here. Dunno.
But maybe we can talk a queen or two via USPS, eh?
We should talk.
 
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