[Andrew Dewey]

I've been reading the Tim Rowe book on The Rose Hive Method.

His "Rose Hive" sounds an awful lot like the medium Langstroth box commonly used in the US - except that the "Rose Hive" has 12 frames instead of the 10 or 8 typically found in a US medium.

What is the significance of a hive body containing 12 frames? Is it a standard number used outside of the US?

If 12 is considered at least by Tim Rowe as natural - I guess we should be asking how many combs are in a typical bee tree? I had always presumed that there was great space variance in bee cavities, and that the bees ultimately filled the available space.

In Rowe's book he writes that the bees shift about in the cavity, leaving areas of older comb unused so that they can be destroyed by wax moths - thereby creating spce for the bees to draw new comb.

Thoughts?

 

[Tenbears]

What? I would be interested in seeing his background, and research data.

 

[Jack Grimshaw]

Andrew,
Let us know what you think of his book.
Is it as interesting as(pictures of ) his house.
I've seen a few of his videos and visited his web site.He has some novel ideas.
Jack

 

[Michael Palmer]

What is the significance of a hive body containing 12 frames?

To me, none.

 

[burns375]

the heating from chimney effect is lost in wide hives, why bees typically choose to move above over laterally.

 

[Andrew Dewey]

I was asked by a newbee college student if I'd heard of The Rose Method and then I saw something on Facebook about it. So I thought I should read the book. I didn't gather anything exciting or new from the book and the 12 frame width doesn't get mentioned much. I was curious if having 12 frames in a box is a British Isles thing or if there is rational biology behind it. My thoughts thus far are that the Rose Hive is essentialy a medium, and all medium hives are increasing in popularity among hobbyists, and that the other stuff he talks about - not using queen excluders, unlimited brood nests, leaving adequate stores of honey for winter - is a collection of many of the points of modern day natural beekeeping. For someone who hasn't been reading and thinking about these sorts of things reading Rowe's book may be an "aha" moment. I didn't find it so. His observation of bees leaving old comb in tree cavities for wax moths to attend to struck me more as "huh?" and I was curious enough to post here to see if anyone had observed this.

 

[odfrank]

I run some twelve frame hives and they perform admirably. I have six on this little trailer and as you can see two of them had about a 300lb. crop on.

 

[Andrew Dewey]

300lb. crop on.

Do you think you got a 300lb average in part due to the 12 frame configuration? Our average localy is in the 35lb range.

 

[Clairmont]

I've been reading the Tim Rowe book on The Rose Hive Method.

His "Rose Hive" sounds an awful lot like the medium Langstroth box commonly used in the US - except that the "Rose Hive" has 12 frames instead of the 10 or 8 typically found in a US medium.

What is the significance of a hive body containing 12 frames? Is it a standard number used outside of the US?

If 12 is considered at least by Tim Rowe as natural - I guess we should be asking how many combs are in a typical bee tree? I had always presumed that there was great space variance in bee cavities, and that the bees ultimately filled the available space.

In Rowe's book he writes that the bees shift about in the cavity, leaving areas of older comb unused so that they can be destroyed by wax moths - thereby creating spce for the bees to draw new comb.

Thoughts?

My understanding is (info from a 50 year veteran beekeeper) is that bees winter better in the U.K. 12 frame hive and better in supers than shallows ( which tend to be the standard in the US). Apparently how much the colony weighs is what has made bee keepers go toward using shallows in the US versus deeps. We had a cold winter in New Hampshire this year and I like honey but like the bees more. We put together a simple way of moving the hives around - full of honey or not and as the bees have a higher survival rate in a 12 frame than the hive currently popular in the US, I guess I'm ready to build the bigger size hive. Let me know your thoughts. Thanks, c

 

[Michael Palmer]

My thoughts...

They don't really have much of a winter in the UK. Regular cleansing flights and pollen coming in most months of the year. Small wonder the bees winter better. I don't guess it has anything to do with the beehive used there.

 

[Colino]

If 12 is considered at least by Tim Rowe as natural - I guess we should be asking how many combs are in a typical bee tree? I had always presumed that there was great space variance in bee cavities, and that the bees ultimately filled the available space.

I have no experience but I've watched dozens of bee tree cut outs on You Tube and not very many of those hives are as wide as 12 frames and his idea doesn't take into account the many hives which have established themselves in wall stud spaces that are usually 16"x4" or 24"x4".

 

[odfrank]

Do you think you got a 300lb average in part due to the 12 frame configuration? Our average localy is in the 35lb range.

I said: "two of them had about a 300lb. crop", not "got a 300lb average". If I could get a 300lb average I would quit my day job and open a honey packing plant.

 

[snl]

We put together a simple way of moving the hives around

Care to share your method of moving?

 

[Andrew Dewey]

I said: "two of them had about a 300lb. crop", not "got a 300lb average". If I could get a 300lb average I would quit my day job and open a honey packing plant.

Sorry for the mistyping on my part - my mind was not working yesterday afternoon after a nice brunch.



Around here the historical average is 35lbs and I think that is generaly reduced due to the decline in small dairy farms and pastures full of clover. In any event, quality forage opportunities are rare here.



Since you are running 12 frames on some hives some questions for you: Do you think that colonies in 12 frame hives have larger populations and are thus better able to capitalize on nectar flows? Do you see a difference in the quantity of stores put by for the bees own use?

 

[odfrank]

One would have to do an exhaustive study to determine the production of a 12 frame deep box over a double Lang hive. A single brood chamber is easier to inspect than a double. The crop does not stack up as high, but the supers are heavier. In my area both styles of brood chamber stockpile too much winter stores, which we don't need. A great queen will excel in any most size box. Its not so much what box the bees are in but what quality of bees are in the box.

 

[Clairmont]

Care to share your method of moving?

Sure, bar clamps or pipe clamps holding two pieces of strapping 5 or 6' feet long which you clamp to the side of the whole hive or what ever part of the hive you are moving. You'll want to use strapping pieces strong enough to lift what ever that might be - 30 pounds or 100 pounds. For lighter weight, I think last week w/ the hives so light after a long winter all that was needed was 3/4" X 2 1/2" strapping - as I said 5 or 6' long. It is a two person job but you have complete control of the hive, you can keep it level and move without jarring.

Hope this makes sense - it looks kind of like what you see potentates being carried around in, in foreign cities like Shanghai. Best, c

 

[Clairmont]

According to Tom Seeley - author of the Honeybee Democracy (watch it on youtube) the "dream home" for a swarm of bees is 1 1/2 sq. cubic ft. in size/area. But check out his lecture. c

 

[TWall]

In his book 'Dadant System of Beekeeping" C.P. Dadant states they came to the conclusion that a brood chamber with 10 Dadant frames was best for providing enough space for the brood chamber. This hive prodvides 540 sq. in. of more comb than a 10 frame deep brood chamber.

Tom

 

[Clairmont]

In his book 'Dadant System of Beekeeping" C.P. Dadant states they came to the conclusion that a brood chamber with 10 Dadant frames was best for providing enough space for the brood chamber. This hive prodvides 540 sq. in. of more comb than a 10 frame deep brood chamber.

Tom

I think the important thing here is the depth of the box. Apparently bees don't like the space or division between boxes so they prefer the deeps for brood. The "Rose Hive" super is about the size of a medium just wider yes? So a Dadant deep is preferable. At any rate, I leaning toward using deeps this year and piling shallows on top for any spare honey they produce. I'm just grateful they survived the winter. Thanks for the input. c

 

[Michael Bush]

>I guess we should be asking how many combs are in a typical bee tree? I had always presumed that there was great space variance in bee cavities, and that the bees ultimately filled the available space.

It is virtually infinite in it's variability. Wider, skinnier, taller, shorter, horizontal (in a limb) vertical (in a trunk). Comb accumulates to fill space available... how many combs will depend on which direction is the widest and which direction they decide to run the comb...

> In Rowe's book he writes that the bees shift about in the cavity, leaving areas of older comb unused so that they can be destroyed by wax moths - thereby creating spce for the bees to draw new comb.

I don't think it's so much that they purposefully abandon comb, but when they can't guard it the wax moths move in... The problem with that is, once they do, they tend to keep going until the hive is in trouble. Better not to let the wax moths have that space...

>I think the important thing here is the depth of the box. Apparently bees don't like the space or division between boxes so they prefer the deeps for brood.

The smaller the depth of the box they less the queen hesitates to move between the boxes... With a medium she moves between boxes all the time with no hesitation I can see. With a deep she hesitates to move to the next box until they are really seriously out of room, sometimes until they are ready to swarm. With a Dadant deep the queen pretty much won't expand out of that box...