i am fixing to get extractor and i have foundationless frames how does the maxant do with them? I am wondering if i would be better off getting an extractor with a bigger diameter so it spins slower. Does anyone use a maxant with foundationless?
foundation less frame extractor?
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What size frames do you use and are they supported in any way?
Rusty
Rusty
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As far as I am aware, every extractor has a variable speed control. So the operator can adjust the RPMs to suit his preference.
May I suggest that you may wish to ask about extracting foundationless in a radial orientation vs a tangential orientation. Some extractors are capable of either style - with an appropriate basket.
May I suggest that you may wish to ask about extracting foundationless in a radial orientation vs a tangential orientation. Some extractors are capable of either style - with an appropriate basket.
I used to spin out half of the first side then turn it around and do the other side completely, then turn it around again and finish the half done side, but still I had comb breaking loose from the frame occasionally. If I wired the frames the comb would hold up better. I even tried extracting bars from a KTB hive, that was a bad idea.
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Sounds like a good business opportunity. Lot of people getting into the TBH. I'm new to beekeeping and to me extraction is a big drawback of the TBH.
Buzz
Buzz
When I have a frame that is not attached good on the sides or bottom I put nails in through the holes that are there for the wires. Something like a 8 finishing nail helps. you can leave the nail. I use med and shallows I wouldn't try it with deeps. BTW don't put the nail in before they draw the frame they will turn the comb out to miss the nails sometimes.
I wouldn't let the diameter of the extractor influence the decision. You're correct that a larger-diameter model can spin slower. However, the reason for that is that you can build up the same outward force even with a slower speed. The outward force is what breaks the comb (and extracts the honey!), not the rotational speed.
I've spun foundationless frames in the 6/3 tangential Mann Lake extractor. Tangential isn't the the best for foundationless, but the integral "basket" puts quite a few wires along the face of the comb, which seems to hold it together (usually). I use the same technique that jmgi mentioned earlier, spinning each set of frames three times.
That sure adds time and effort, though
If I was to do it again, and had a bunch of hives, I'd get a larger radial extractor with speed control, and just spin them once, slowly, for a longer duration...
Good luck!
wanderyr
I've spun foundationless frames in the 6/3 tangential Mann Lake extractor. Tangential isn't the the best for foundationless, but the integral "basket" puts quite a few wires along the face of the comb, which seems to hold it together (usually). I use the same technique that jmgi mentioned earlier, spinning each set of frames three times.
That sure adds time and effort, though
If I was to do it again, and had a bunch of hives, I'd get a larger radial extractor with speed control, and just spin them once, slowly, for a longer duration...Good luck!
wanderyr
Coming up with an extractor basket that is geared towards top bar extracting (specifically the KTB in my case) would be a good invention for someone. When I was using all top bar hives back several years ago, I made up my mind I was not going to do crush and strain, for the bees to have to rebuild honey combs all the time didn't make sense, and it certainly wasn't the best use of their time, not to mention the amount of nectar or honey it takes to build comb.
The problem with designing such an extractor basket, is that KTB users build many different lengths of top bars and shapes of hives. The key to the design would be to make a holder basket that not only supports the top bar of honey vertically, but there would need to be some sort of metal or plastic mesh that encloses the comb tightly on the sides and edges of comb so as to keep the comb from breaking loose from the top bar. As said earlier, I think radial extracting would be the best way to actually spin out the honey once you get the basket figured out.
I could fill a page of equations showing the various effects of diameter and speed, all it would do is confuse a lot of folks.
The bottom line boils down to a simple fact of physics. It takes a certain amount of force to remove the honey from the combs. If your comb is strong enough to withstand that force, all is good. If not, then the comb will disintegrate before the honey comes out. Speeds and diameters wont matter, what matters is how strong is the comb, and is it strong enough to withstand the force required for extraction. Slow speeds give less force. Patience will also come into play. If you are patient enough to wait for an hour, then a low speed setup may well get the honey out slowly, without breaking a weaker comb. The key is, spin it at a speed that doesn't break the comb, and wait till the honey comes out.
There may be benefit to foundationless in the brood box, but I dont see any benefit in a honey super. It may look less expensive up front, but, after a few of them blow out during extraction, one will realize it was a false economy, which just adds a LOT of time / effort to the extraction process. Our supers are all plastic frames that wont blow out, even with the extractor at high speed. We plan to extract twice, maybe 3 times during the season, and when I bring a dozen supers back to the shed for extraction, I want to get the job done, not sit around all day. we bought the mann lake 9/18 with motor. With our current setup, I'm pretty sure I can spin out one batch of frames, while uncapping the next batch. I expect to get thru half a dozen loads (a dozen supers) in a couple of hours, then put the wet supers right back onto the hives. I dont have the time nor the patience to sit around flipping frames multiple times and taking an hour per load to extract. Been there, done that, doing two at a time in the club extractor. Worked fine for us when we had a couple hives, but got real tedious when we were extracting 10 supers at once this fall. I ordered the extractor the next day, and it's in the garage waiting on it's first load now.
The bottom line boils down to a simple fact of physics. It takes a certain amount of force to remove the honey from the combs. If your comb is strong enough to withstand that force, all is good. If not, then the comb will disintegrate before the honey comes out. Speeds and diameters wont matter, what matters is how strong is the comb, and is it strong enough to withstand the force required for extraction. Slow speeds give less force. Patience will also come into play. If you are patient enough to wait for an hour, then a low speed setup may well get the honey out slowly, without breaking a weaker comb. The key is, spin it at a speed that doesn't break the comb, and wait till the honey comes out.
There may be benefit to foundationless in the brood box, but I dont see any benefit in a honey super. It may look less expensive up front, but, after a few of them blow out during extraction, one will realize it was a false economy, which just adds a LOT of time / effort to the extraction process. Our supers are all plastic frames that wont blow out, even with the extractor at high speed. We plan to extract twice, maybe 3 times during the season, and when I bring a dozen supers back to the shed for extraction, I want to get the job done, not sit around all day. we bought the mann lake 9/18 with motor. With our current setup, I'm pretty sure I can spin out one batch of frames, while uncapping the next batch. I expect to get thru half a dozen loads (a dozen supers) in a couple of hours, then put the wet supers right back onto the hives. I dont have the time nor the patience to sit around flipping frames multiple times and taking an hour per load to extract. Been there, done that, doing two at a time in the club extractor. Worked fine for us when we had a couple hives, but got real tedious when we were extracting 10 supers at once this fall. I ordered the extractor the next day, and it's in the garage waiting on it's first load now.
I dont think so. Folks go with the TBH because they are trying to save a few pennies over traditional gear. One could spend a lot of time and effort developing a product, only to find the target market is so price sensative, they wont buy it anyways, at least not enough of them to warrant the development effort.
>Newbee question, if you put rubber bands or wire around the frame while you extract would it be of any benefit? It would be messy but might save the comb?
You're trying to solve a problem you don't have. If you start slow when the combs are heavy, a lot of honey comes out, because there is a lot of honey. As the comb gets lighter, you go faster. As the comb gets empty you crank it as fast as it will go. I would do the same if it was wired wax, plastic foundation or foundationless. If you go too fast when the combs are heavy you can blow out anything. If you start slow and work your way up, you can extract anything. As far as top bar hives, it depends on your extractor and the fit. With a frame there is usually something to hold it in place in a radial and something for it to rest on in tangential. The tangential should work with a top bar comb, but then the other issue is something to support the comb while you uncap it...
You're trying to solve a problem you don't have. If you start slow when the combs are heavy, a lot of honey comes out, because there is a lot of honey. As the comb gets lighter, you go faster. As the comb gets empty you crank it as fast as it will go. I would do the same if it was wired wax, plastic foundation or foundationless. If you go too fast when the combs are heavy you can blow out anything. If you start slow and work your way up, you can extract anything. As far as top bar hives, it depends on your extractor and the fit. With a frame there is usually something to hold it in place in a radial and something for it to rest on in tangential. The tangential should work with a top bar comb, but then the other issue is something to support the comb while you uncap it...
>I understand the physics of it i was wondering about the air pressure pushing the comb to the side at a higher speed
Not something I've ever seen. The frame behind is pushing air toward the frame that is pushing air towards the next comb...
Not something I've ever seen. The frame behind is pushing air toward the frame that is pushing air towards the next comb...
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