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psm
Thanks for posting. My weakness in the fly back is always finding the queen.
Cheers
gww
I have accomplished very much the same result using the Taranov Maneuver. I have a hard time finding Carni queens once the population is up. There is one drawback in shaking off frames if they have queen cells you want to keep viable.


Edit; Whoops! brain fart. Taranov puts the queen with the young bees not with the foragers as in the fly away split. It works as a split but different implications.
 

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frank
Those can be messed up too. Ask me how I know?

I lost the queen in this one and the hive that I put the split on over a double screen board (also the hive I shook) still swarmed later. I did notice no queen and put a queen cell in a few days later when I saw no laying and it turned into a good split plus swarms being hived and so about four hives from one even when screwing up.


I would rather be lucky then good.

My one fly back did really good to even though I was not sure of the queen and where she was cause the hive had queen cells in it. It may have already swarmed or not and I just made sure that both sides had a queen cell and so in my fly back, one comb (in the old bee side) did have capped brood and a queen cell. I also did not feed the old bee side but did give a couple of gal to the young side even though they had stores cause I was worried about if they did have to mate a queen and grow some brood with out having foragers. The old side drew comb fast even with out feed due to the flow being on. I would have faith that the old bee side would do well enough to make winter size with out feed if made during early flow/swarm time. They seemed to draw comb really fast even with out feeding.
Cheers
gww

Ps frank You are separating the bees by age with both types of splits and I did it hoping this fact would keep bees from swarming due to the changing of hive dynamics. Didn't work that well for me for swarm control but I think I know my mistakes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Nice video, psm1212. You did a great job explaining the process and your rationale.

Thank you. Sorry for the wind noise and all of the movement. I had my wife talked into shooting it with me. She got stung shortly after she got out of the truck, so I had to take her home and shoot by myself.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I enjoyed the video, psm1212. One question; how did you requeen the old hive?
This year, I let them requeen themselves. One week after the split, I pulled all frames with queen cells except for one, and put them in mating nucs and queen castles.

Last year, I timed a starter/finisher and grafted queen cells for the parent hives and additional nucs I made up. You time the cells to be ready for one week after the split. You go in and tear down ALL of the emergency cells and leave a grafted cell in place. Takes a lot of timing and work.

The other thing I did not talk about in the video was doing an OAV treatment of the parent hive 21 days after the split. The parent hive (and any nucs you have made out of them) should be broodless at this time. I am in the process of treating all of them with OAV now.
 

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I had my wife talked into shooting it with me. She got stung shortly after she got out of the truck, so I had to take her home and shoot by myself.
I can identify with this- I talked my wife into helping me move a trap-out last year. Exactly two bees were on the outside of the hive set-up after I buttoned it up, and exactly one of them happened to sting my wife- so she now graciously sends her regrets anytime I invite her on a date that involves tangential beekeeping activities. ;)
 

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So I tried this last week. I think I made the mistake of placing the old hive too close to the new hive (about 8 feet apart). Most of the flying bees stayed with the old hive and left the new hive with the queen really short on bees. They would check out the new hive, but just buzz around a bit and go back to the old hive. I put in an additional frame of brood and hopefully it will do OK. The queenless hive is packed with bees and there are multiple queen cells so they should be ok. I could probably take a couple more frames from it with queen cells and make another nuc colony but i don't want to push too much to expand this late in the year. Has anyone doing flyback splits had this happen to them?
 

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ccbees
I bet it works out doing nothing. If you wanted to supplement the queen a bit, you could shake a frame or two of nurse bees in with her and they would stay. As long as you pick a frame with out a queen cell on it, you, at least have no worry of shaking your queen from a queenless hive.


The other thing is that your foragers may be out in the field during the day till the queen gives them brood they have to cover and so you may have a bigger old hive then you think. I find it hard to believe that many old bees left the old queen.

I am not the best bee keeper to take advice from. I come here to get advice and do pretty well with that. I did see this was your first post though and so wanted to welcome you to the forum.
Cheers
gww
 

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So I tried this last week. I think I made the mistake of placing the old hive too close to the new hive (about 8 feet apart). Most of the flying bees stayed with the old hive and left the new hive with the queen really short on bees. They would check out the new hive, but just buzz around a bit and go back to the old hive. I put in an additional frame of brood and hopefully it will do OK. The queenless hive is packed with bees and there are multiple queen cells so they should be ok. I could probably take a couple more frames from it with queen cells and make another nuc colony but i don't want to push too much to expand this late in the year. Has anyone doing flyback splits had this happen to them?
I have seen what you describe.

One fix is to use the same box and bottom and top. IE move the bees out of the original box into a new one and leave the old box with bottom, and top at the old site , filled with new frames. In the video you could see some of the returning bees pick the next hive over as it was white and the new one a wood look. If it looks and smells the same and is in the same place they tend to fly right in. I modulate the "drift" back,, with this and Distance, want lots of drift back use the old box, less drift back use a different box. More distance =more drift back, less distance they smell the hive and some find it moved. one can also use a visual Queue, As my kids are bigger now, I have several blue, yellow red , sand box pails and shovels. a couple weeks prior to the split place a visual Queue near /next /on the hive. Post split have it in the same place.

Also works in a multi split,, this spring we had a mean hive that was 3 or 4 boxes high, I wanted to use the field bees to do some work , and also minimize the trips. So hatched, mated, 4 queens in NUCS. the original mean hive was all white. We made 2 new setups all white. Pulled the whole mean hive out, Placed side by side the 2 new hives with the 2 nucs in these new hives, filled them with comb. (placed 2 inches apart centered in the old location, was a bench). Then added an empty super, Buy then the mean hive had 4 supers, so added 1 each of the full supers as is on newspaper, over the empty one. Took the mean hive and 2 empiest supers away somewhat far 75 feet. So as the field bees came back they split to the right and left as the 2 hives looked the same, was a double fly back split. today all 3 hives have the 4th super being filled. the field bee steal, was to help avoid a swarm, and jump start the 2 NUCs into 2 production hives. That many bees that early would have likely swarmed.

Several ways to do fly back, and harness the field bees ability to go back to the same location.

I also do this visual Queue when I have several Mating NUCs in close proximity. almost any colorful object can work.

GG
 

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So I tried this last week. I think I made the mistake of placing the old hive too close to the new hive (about 8 feet apart). Most of the flying bees stayed with the old hive and left the new hive with the queen really short on bees. They would check out the new hive, but just buzz around a bit and go back to the old hive. I put in an additional frame of brood and hopefully it will do OK. The queenless hive is packed with bees and there are multiple queen cells so they should be ok. I could probably take a couple more frames from it with queen cells and make another nuc colony but i don't want to push too much to expand this late in the year. Has anyone doing flyback splits had this happen to them?
Not sure I understand the problem.
Is the queen in old hive or the new hive?

My old/new hives stand within only 2 feet (I never move them around).
It maybe 5-6 feet between the entrances, facing the same direction.
Grey hive - the old hive; blue/white hive - the new hive.
I have done the fly back split last month from Grey hive into empty Blue hive (by simply moving every single frame into the Blue hive - minus the queen).
20200602_131931.jpg

Did you leave the old hive untouched at its old location with the queen included (as you should)?
If yes - roughly 50% of the bee population should pack back into it by the end of the day (most all flying bees will be there).

At least mate few of those QCs from your queen-less hive.
You can always combine them back.
If you depend on a single QC - it may fail on you and you'll have a problem of your own making.
You don't make a permanent nuc - you simply use it as a temp mating nuc.
 

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Well done!
 

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Thanks for all the replies about my split.
GWW and Gray Goose- I was surprised also. One hive is painted and one hive is natural wood. It did seem that the bees were using visual queues and mostly flew around the new hive like they were confused that their hive wasn't there anymore. Eventually drifting back and into the old hive. Next time I will try moving the bees and leaving the box. The frame I took with the queen was covered with bees, and did have a lot of capped brood so I think it will build back up pretty quickly if I keep feeding a lot.

Greg V - Maybe I misunderstood the concept and did the split incorrectly. I was under the impression that you move the old hive to a new location, then pull a frame of bees with the queen and place into a new hive at the old location. That is what I did and it left the new hive (in the original location) with mostly the queen and house bees, and the old hive (in a new location) with bunches of bees and no queen. Maybe I should now split the old hive to increase the chances of getting a mated queen.
 

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CC yes try it a few different ways. Conceptually all the bees but the 1 frame with queen are moved, in your case. the boxes and top and bottom, and distance can be tinkered with a bit. Works best if all the parts are the same color/paint. some of it is still a mystery to me.

I just did one last night that was a "Queen swap" fly back split.
Put a new queen on 2 frames of bees, (small NUC) on top of a 3 box hive with newspaper combine. (also double queen excluder, 2 queen setup)
Wait 2 weeks.
Set the new queen and top box on the bottom board, move the original 3 boxes of bees to a new stand. (2 brood 1 super)
the New queen now has about 1/3 to 1/2 of the old hives bees.

Same concept as your split but the queen was started 6-8 weeks prior to the fly back split.

GG
 
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