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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Not sure where else to post this article, and I am not sure my take on it yet.

Being a hobbyist beekeeper my first thought was to think the group was silly, but then I read the article and can see their point of view. That being said, I have always been of the opinion that humans are just as a part of nature as anything else, so anything we do is natural, including introducing species to new environments for our benefit. Still I like the idea of preserving things.

Again, not sure where I come down on this argument.


https://www.sltrib.com/news/environment/2020/08/23/environmental-groups-want/
 

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Quickly scanned the link:
Should Cox lose his access to national forests, he figures he will just shrink his operations. And that could mean not only less honey but also fewer almonds and avocados.
As much as I like and actually do the preservation projects...

Even the last statement is false.
Kicking the HBs from national forest somehow means fewer avocados. What is the direct connection?

Anyway, the worms already crawled out of the can.
Can not stuff them back now.

Feral bees will not ask for the permission to access those national forests, like it or not.
I hardly see the environmental talkers to be scanning and eradicating the feral bees across the forests (in practice).
As long as there are managed bees, there will always be escaped bees too.
 

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Interesting approach. Over the pond in Europe the Bees are "native" so no issues.

So leave the National forest alone, are there not lots of other Square Miles to bee keep on?

Set hives on the edge, > 5 miles in there should not be an effect.

More important IMO would be Swarms once out and about if the area is good bee habitat they could spread to the whole National Forest.

One could keep one area hive less and allow another and do a long term study to see the real effects.

GG
 

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Quickly scanned the link:


Even the last statement is false.
Kicking the HBs from national forest somehow means fewer avocados. What?

Anyway, the worms already crawled out of the can.
Can not stuff them back now.

Feral bees will not ask for the permission to access those national forests, like it or not.
I hardly see the environmental talkers to be scanning and eradicating the feral bees across the forests (in practice).
GregV the Almonds and Avocados, only need the bees for a short duration, Many pollination hives need a place to "exist" other than in the orchards. Healthy place is better to build back up, some of the pollination is hard on Hives.

IMO these hive would be absolute worse for the National forest, first they go to the Almonds, where all kinds of bee problems exist, then to the forests.

I would rather the national forest Hive stay there for the duration, rather than be migratory to boot.

GG
 

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GregV the Almonds and Avocados, only need the bees for a short duration, Many pollination hives need a place to "exist" other than in the orchards. Healthy place is better to build back up, some of the pollination is hard on Hives.

IMO these hive would be absolute worse for the National forest, first they go to the Almonds, where all kinds of bee problems exist, then to the forests.

I would rather the national forest Hive stay there for the duration, rather than be migratory to boot.

GG
I get the bees need to be parked somewhere.
But the implication is made - IF you don't let me park my bees in the National Forest, the avocado pollination will suffer.
This is not true, to put it mildly.

Basically, there are many other parking places outside of National Forest.
Of course, the National Forest parking spot is highly desirable for many reasons - but it is NOT a predicate for avocado pollination.
 

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Basically, there are many other parking places outside of National Forest.

yes agree

I am almost on the side of the block the bees.
If the sheep and cattle cannot graze then the Bees fall in the same AG block IMO

we either have pristine or non pristine.

GG
 

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Interesting point of view. Iam not sure how I feel, but I do wonder if feral bees only occupied a large area could the survivors become more mite resistant.
 

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Heck, given access, I'd park my bees in some National or State forest too.
Why be modest?
:)

Well, so it happens, my backyard bees are already flying into the state protected area.
Hope, they don't ban my backyard bees.
On the other hand, these local protected areas do not claim to be "pristine".
LOL

Another inconvenient subject.
 

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Interesting point of view. Iam not sure how I feel, but I do wonder if feral bees only occupied a large area could the survivors become more mite resistant.
to the opps point honey bees are not native so "feral" to the "planners" of the national forests are escapees.

An interesting angle to pursue is to find honey bees in fossil remains here in North America and then play extinct species being re introduced.
I mean In Mich we had Wolves on the list in the UP as federally protected.

If bees were here in the past then it is not "foreign" species it is reintroduced species.

GG
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
If the sheep and cattle cannot graze then the Bees fall in the same AG block IMO
National forests and national parks are two different things. Livestock do graze on national forests, but not allowed in national parks -- you must keep them off if you own boundary land, is my understanding. I actually hadn't thought of that. Since the cattle and sheep are allowed to graze on national forest lands, methinks one cannot block the bees since bees == livestock.
 

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National forests and national parks are two different things. Livestock do graze on national forests, but not allowed in national parks -- you must keep them off if you own boundary land, is my understanding. I actually hadn't thought of that. Since the cattle and sheep are allowed to graze on national forest lands, methinks one cannot block the bees since bees == livestock.
Somewhat what I thought, bees would not likely do more damage than cattle or sheep. both are AG and both "use" the land while minimizing the damage they do.

I think the national Parks are "set asides" of nature, National Forests, are "the peoples" land and can be used a bit. loging, grazing, mining...

Maybe there is a National forest in Utah where One could have bees.

GG
 

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I think the premise of their argument is false. How long have honeybees been in Utah's national forests? 100 years? Maybe longer? Now all of a sudden we are worried about their competition with native species? As if that hasn't already been going on for a long time. What are the factual results? Unless the plaintiffs are American Indians, then anyone else by interfering, is "changing the environment". In a way this is an entitlement mentality, "we will tell you what to do because we have studied science and know better than anyone else"

My point is there is a long list of so called non native plants and organisms and if it became policy to remove all of them we the tax payers would have to fork over billions. And then we ourselves, the non-American Indians, would have to remove ourselves. To me a lot of this is lunacy. I am for policing the borders for invasive species that are know to do great damage. Like the Chinese emerald ash borer. Too bad we didn't catch that one. That is where I think efforts should be made and dollars spent.

Climate change and species migration is a natural constant. It's been going on for billions of years. There is a difference between attempting to manage the impacts for various reasons and what I have come to recognize as a nihilistic cancel culture attempting to dictate an ideology.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
And then we ourselves, the non-American Indians, would have to remove ourselves.
But even they came from Asia or Africa or some such. **** sapiens did not spontaneously also evolve in the America.
Like you said:

Climate change and species migration is a natural constant. It's been going on for billions of years.
 

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I read the article but none of the links imbedded in it so I may not have the whole picture...

Having spent my entire career in Public Land management I know very well how news papers, sometimes innocently and sometimes with an agenda, can gloss over some very important points. Notice in paragraph #5 "asking the U.S. Forest Service to put the brakes on new apiaries in national forests". (Emphasis added by me). This could be a key word or it could be a mistake by the author. If the environmental groups are asking for no NEW apiaries then no one would have to downscale their operation.
 

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Very dangerous trying to form an opinion on a subject when you don't really know much about.

I can speak from first hand experience and involvement in this matter for almost 40 years. Feral bees are not welcome in protected national parks where old tree hollows are a scarce commodity. Here in Australia I have see nest boxes, and natural hollows not only taken over by feral bees, but also many cases where they drive out and kill the occupants (birds and mammals) of the box or hollow. And we don't have africanized bees here.

As much as I like bee keeping, native fauna have a priority hands down, especially in protected national parks.
 

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A lot of opinion on what should or shouldn't be done is very subjective. The cry for more "natural acres of flowering plants" is not necessarily a bad thing. It might make up for acreage lost to roads for instance. I have no problem making changes to an environment to attempt to bring back something of a "balance' whatever that really means. Not much of a fan of row planted forests like in some countries in Europe. There's something I find ugly with those. I'm also glad the dinosaurs died out. It would suck trying to take a hike and worrying about a T-Rex barreling out of the woods. Native VS Ferrel species is relative to time.

I am looking into a grant program that would pay for some 50 flower seed types for pollinators for a minimum of 6 acres. I will need to do a survey but I expect to maybe put in 10 acres or more with those soon. I have looked at some of these plantings and they are quite beautiful to say the least. Are all the plants native to Michigan? I doubt it. I really don't care. The aim is to support pollinators. Might pay a visit there tomorrow to look at the old barn on the property to see if it can be utilized as a honey house. I might even commit the "sin" of bringing in some non-native high nectar producing trees as well. The ones in question are not banned as of yet so I may move forward. Our goal is to attempt to create a forage rich area for the intended apiary. "Man"-agment. is something people do. I might also go on a poison ivy eradication effort, in the surrounding woods. I'm not worried about causing the extinction of that plant.
 

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Interesting point of view. Iam not sure how I feel, but I do wonder if feral bees only occupied a large area could the survivors become more mite resistant.
to the opps point honey bees are not native so "feral" to the "planners" of the national forests are escapees.

An interesting angle to pursue is to find honey bees in fossil remains here in North America and then play extinct species being re introduced.
I mean In Mich we had Wolves on the list in the UP as federally protected.

If bees were here in the past then it is not "foreign" species it is reintroduced species.

GG
There's a newish book called American Serengeti that makes that case for wild horses.
 

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Concerning the subject of the article, I read another last week based on a study out of a Canadian university if I remember correctly eluding to the problems dense populations of honey bees cause for native species in certain areas. I also believe it mentioned the city of Toronto has restrictions on urban apiculture to limit competition with native pollinators. I'll see if I can dig it up.
 

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Clipping the wings of queens and placing queen / drone excluder screens over hive entrances would be appropriate when placing bees in the national forests.

Identifying critical areas and keeping honeybees 5 miles away would be good practice.

Brett Adee and his tribe have a lot of bee resources to try to locate. Adee Honey farms has had over 100,000 colonies at times. I can't blame him for wanting the locations.

Xerces has many points that may well be valid. Many of the insects whose interests they represent have little or no research. Extinction is permanent. I can't blame them for opposing the application.

Somewhere in between lies a protocol that may work, but there will be an impact, positive or negative, depending on facet and point of view.
 
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