Beesource Beekeeping Forums banner

1 - 20 of 37 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Efficacy of inducing supercedure

I would like to induce supercedure in my package hives and replace the package queens with locally raised queens. My question is the following:

To induce supercedure is fairly easy, but I would like an extremely reliable and fast procedure that is consistent for multiple hives. To my knowledge clipping an antennae is the best method for what I am suggesting. Supercedure is immediately induced and cells started after 24ish hours. I have no experience with this at this scale for multiple hives, if this is incorrect, please let me know.

Thanks.

Andy

And yes I am aware I could wait, take two frames of brood let the local queen mate, return, pinch the original and then combine, but I am lazy. Tryin to knock two birds out with one stone.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,931 Posts
Re: Efficacy of inducing supercedure

My experience is that in managing honey bees shortcuts will usually cause problems. If these are packages that you started last spring they will probably start swarm or supersedure cells on this year's spring nectar flow.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Re: Efficacy of inducing supercedure

My experience is that in managing honey bees shortcuts will usually cause problems. If these are packages that you started last spring they will probably start swarm or supersedure cells on this year's spring nectar flow.
Will be this spring 2019 packages.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,558 Posts
Re: Efficacy of inducing supercedure

Do you draw a hard line between quality of queens from induced emergency cells, and those from eggs deliberately laid in purpose built queen cups? I and many others have been quite satisfied with queen quality when cells are started using double screen division board. One such design is the Snelgrove Board which I use.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
92 Posts
Re: Efficacy of inducing supercedure

I am curious as to why you want to do this?
Do you think that the "local queen" will be better? Because it sounds like you want to have your new package make a new queen.
How would this be better than the one that came with the bees?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,408 Posts
I've found that even the presence of a single QX can sometimes induce supersedure cells if there are viable larvae above it - but if you really want to ensure that supersedure cells (and not emergency cells) are drawn, then extend the path length between a Q+ve brood box and the target larvae - whether these be grafts, or a comb of BIAS - thusly:



(click on the above thumbnail to enlarge - it's a bit big to post 'as is')
LJ
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,135 Posts
Not sure what you mean by local queens. Package cells mated with local drones? Will be a lot of package drones in the neighborhood too.
If you could get local brood, late enough packages for local drones a queenless package on brood would get you farther.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Re: Efficacy of inducing supercedure

Do you draw a hard line between quality of queens from induced emergency cells, and those from eggs deliberately laid in purpose built queen cups? I and many others have been quite satisfied with queen quality when cells are started using double screen division board. One such design is the Snelgrove Board which I use.
Once the cells are being drawn, I plan to replace them with queen cells that I make from local stock as I have noticed package queens, while potentially excellent quality I believe they get sent far too early and thus fail. I also prefer stock from production hives that I know have actually overwintered in central Illinois. It is not a line being extended, I grab queens from fellow beeks whose production hives perform excellently. Once the supercedure process was started, I planned to replace the cell with my local cell.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Re: Efficacy of inducing supercedure

I am curious as to why you want to do this?
Do you think that the "local queen" will be better? Because it sounds like you want to have your new package make a new queen.
How would this be better than the one that came with the bees?
Yep, I do prefer local queens bred under local conditions with fellow hives that overwintered to produce viable healthy young queens whose development is not interrupted by the package business.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I've found that even the presence of a single QX can sometimes induce supersedure cells if there are viable larvae above it - but if you really want to ensure that supersedure cells (and not emergency cells) are drawn, then extend the path length between a Q+ve brood box and the target larvae - whether these be grafts, or a comb of BIAS - thusly:



(click on the above thumbnail to enlarge - it's a bit big to post 'as is')
LJ
I guess that would work, but it isn't a for certain. I know when I clip the antennae, that hive will go into supercedure, I have done it in the past, just not on this scale. Also, if I go through that much trouble, I would just make a quick mating nuc then after queen is mated and laying, pinch the original. Which I am not against, just tryin to shave off some equipment and time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Not sure what you mean by local queens. Package cells mated with local drones? Will be a lot of package drones in the neighborhood too.
If you could get local brood, late enough packages for local drones a queenless package on brood would get you farther.
Local queen cell(graft from overwintered production hive after initial spring evaluation) mated with local drones from local overwintered hives in early April/May/June. I have no problem with package queens that people want to keep. The ones that survive are normally excellent and great producers. Again, once you survive a winter in Illinois, have dealt with the **** hive beetle bombs from reckless beeks, varroa, rotten weather, etc... you are probably gonna be worth keepin around for drones.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,905 Posts
Re: Efficacy of inducing supercedure

Once the cells are being drawn, I plan to replace them with queen cells that I make from local stock as I have noticed package queens, while potentially excellent quality I believe they get sent far too early and thus fail. I also prefer stock from production hives that I know have actually overwintered in central Illinois. It is not a line being extended, I grab queens from fellow beeks whose production hives perform excellently. Once the supercedure process was started, I planned to replace the cell with my local cell.
If you plan to replace the package bees queen cells with ones you have grafted, why even go to the trouble of getting the package to start queen cells? Yank the package queen and plant your capped cell.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Re: Efficacy of inducing supercedure

If you plan to replace the package bees queen cells with ones you have grafted, why even go to the trouble of getting the package to start queen cells? Yank the package queen and plant your capped cell.
Ideally the goal is to replace the queen without any break in brood laying. You are correct that this is an option. We chose not to use it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,231 Posts
Re: Efficacy of inducing supercedure

Once the cells are being drawn, I plan to replace them with queen cells that I make from local stock as I have noticed package queens, while potentially excellent quality I believe they get sent far too early and thus fail. I also prefer stock from production hives that I know have actually overwintered in central Illinois. It is not a line being extended, I grab queens from fellow beeks whose production hives perform excellently. Once the supercedure process was started, I planned to replace the cell with my local cell.
I'm confused as to the whole point of the supersedure? If the bold text above is your plan, what is the point of inducing the supersedure? Without more information, it seems like a pointless endeavor. My suggestion is (if package queen is producing well) simply allow her to build up the colony and then requeen once conditions permit and when surplus bees are available in your apiary. If the package queen is not to your standards, then donate her to a local beekeeper who might be able to utilize her.
 

·
Vendor
Local feral survivors in eight frame medium boxes.
Joined
·
54,120 Posts
Re: Efficacy of inducing supercedure

>I've found that even the presence of a single QX can sometimes induce supersedure cells if there are viable larvae above it

Me too. If you want to make it happen for sure put a double screen between them and then after the queens are well along, remove the double screen and replace it with a queen excluder.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Re: Efficacy of inducing supercedure

I'm confused as to the whole point of the supersedure? If the bold text above is your plan, what is the point of inducing the supersedure? Without more information, it seems like a pointless endeavor. My suggestion is (if package queen is producing well) simply allow her to build up the colony and then requeen once conditions permit and when surplus bees are available in your apiary. If the package queen is not to your standards, then donate her to a local beekeeper who might be able to utilize her.
OK, the point of supercedure is to allow the hive to continue to lay without a brood break using minimal resources. It is not a pointless endeavor. Currently I must commit a small mating nuc and the resources(bees, frame, feed) therein to produce a mated, laying queen. Once the queen is laying, I can pinch the original queen and immediately combine the laying queen without fear of rejection. There is a tremendous amount of work and time involved to get this to happen. Supercedure allows two things to happen. 1. The original colony is used for the mating nuc and self evaluates the queen. 2. For a short time there is a 2 queen laying colony that helps the colony along.

Regardless, while I have induced supercedure, I am asking the community the most efficacious way to perform and expect a colony response.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Re: Efficacy of inducing supercedure

>I've found that even the presence of a single QX can sometimes induce supersedure cells if there are viable larvae above it

Me too. If you want to make it happen for sure put a double screen between them and then after the queens are well along, remove the double screen and replace it with a queen excluder.
Yes sir, this is an option, but one I'd rather not enjoin as I have not made the double screen boards to perform this and I want to make sure the colony kills off the old queen as well, save me a step.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,231 Posts
Re: Efficacy of inducing supercedure

>I've found that even the presence of a single QX can sometimes induce supersedure cells if there are viable larvae above it

Me too. If you want to make it happen for sure put a double screen between them and then after the queens are well along, remove the double screen and replace it with a queen excluder.
Technically, that would not be a supercedure, rather an emergency queen.
 

·
Vendor
Local feral survivors in eight frame medium boxes.
Joined
·
54,120 Posts
Re: Efficacy of inducing supercedure

>Technically, that would not be a supercedure, rather an emergency queen.

Sort of. They can still SMELL the queen. Just having an excluder between them almost always works and they can still exchange QMP by trophallaxis yet the pheromones are low enough to cause them to raise a queen. Are these emergency queens? I don't think so. But yes, without the ability to share QMP by trophallaxis is more of a sure thing. I think the fact that they can smell a queen leads them to believe she is just failing because they are still getting the QMP by mouth. You could make the case for either supersedure or emergency under those circumstances. The way it transpires though, leads me to consider it more supersedure than emergency.
 
1 - 20 of 37 Posts
Top