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Discussion Starter #1
Watching lots of YouTube lately. So I think the channel is Barnyard Bees. This fellow seems to love these 2 frame mating nucs. So the description goes take a frame of brood and their nurse bees and an empty frame and stick them in the box, come back in 30 days and you should have bees and eggs and larva. He goes on to say, once you have a build up take frame full of eggs and larva, put it into a second one add an empty frame and in 30 days you have a new queen laying eggs and taking care of larva. Is it possible that this works anywhere other than in his yard? he goes on to suggest he is even able to winter them in these. Granted, I assume he is in GA, and I am of the opinion that you can do whatever you want in GA :)
 

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Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

Yes it is queen rearing of the most basic form I suppose. It can be done anywhere but the window is smaller the farther north you go. Personally the OTS method is better. A large colony that is well provisioned makes the cells. Then it is broken down into nucs of whatever size there after. OTS link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4YRr_pZpH8 If you merge OTS with Mike Palmers nuc system you get a very strong sustainable apiary system.
 

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Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

Using a Snelgrove division board would be a fair bit removed (improved) method. In the north walk away splits pretty much precludes much of a honey harvest and barely two colonies strong enough to winter. The snelgrove splits gives quite dependable swarm control as a bonus.

Walk aways sure is simplicity. No fun at all!
 

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Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

Walk away.
What you do when you walked away from what needs to be done, to do what you want to do.
What you do when you know it will be a while before you can come back.
 

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Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

Yes it is queen rearing of the most basic form I suppose. It can be done anywhere but the window is smaller the farther north you go. Personally the OTS method is better. A large colony that is well provisioned makes the cells. Then it is broken down into nucs of whatever size there after. OTS link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4YRr_pZpH8 If you merge OTS with Mike Palmers nuc system you get a very strong sustainable apiary system.
The video was very good, thanks for the link. I am going to do this; have been sustainable for a few years except buying queens for genetics, but this will be better.
 

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Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

I tried David's method and was not successful at getting mated returned queens. Minimum for me is three frames in a nuc with at least 2000-3000 bees, about 1#. Works most of the time. When the nuc grows to five frames, it is sold.
 

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Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

It could work, depending.

Didn't watch the video to see the guy exactly, but my feeling is the beekeeper would still need to have skills and an understanding of bees. Otherwise he will end up with a bunch of empty robbed out 2 framers.

Cos he could do it at the wrong time of year, wrong place, wrong aged bees in the splits (old ones will just fly home, young ones will not defend), and a bunch of other things can go wrong.

The method as described by Absinthe sounds simple, but I bet there is a learning curve even so.

Some queens produced by this method will be good, quite a few will be second rate.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

I am guessing that the OTS technique is about having a large colony use more resources to 1. Create emergency queen cells 2. In positions you want them to be. vs these 2 Frame walk-aways that just base off of a frame of brood only has the bees that were attached to the frame given to bring up a queen cell.

I get the intuitive aspect of how they both work. The concept makes as much sense as any. And in any event, I have never tried any technique at all, because I was trying to never have more than one colony in my yard ever. That has to change. And I am thouroughly willing to not have a honey harvest, if it guarantees that I have multiple overwintered colonies come spring.

I guess what I want to see or talk with is someone doing stuff 1. Preferably in NC 2. WIthout a huge bee yard.

I love what Michael Palmer does, but I neither have the space or the powerful existing colonies to do what he does. And at least as far as I can tell, it doesn't really scale down well.
 

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Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

I made 10 queens this way, in March.
Because of the way this forum formats things, it is hard to tell, which responses go with which. When you say you made 10 Q's this way. Is that with the 2 frame walk-aways or with the OTS. Not that they are mutually exclusive necessary. I just wonder mostly about making 2 frame nucs rather than 5 frame nucs...
 

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Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

Cos he could do it at the wrong time of year, wrong place, wrong aged bees in the splits (old ones will just fly home, young ones will not defend), and a bunch of other things can go wrong.
:thumbsup:
 

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Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

"guarantees that I have multiple overwintered colonies come spring." There are no guarantees. A walk away for one hive is a high risk low reward. Nothing or poor queens is the most probable.
With one hive, honestly the best hives and queens are going to be made by forcing them into swarm mode. If you want hives in the spring, make quality not quantity in the summer.

What do you have in the one hive? single, double deep?
 

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Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

I guess one can call it queen rearing if you throw a few bees in a box and let them grow out a queen cell. Question I would ask, is that a quality product that you would want to buy ? Conversely, is it a quality product you would be comfortable selling? Throwing bees in a box is essentially allowing the bees to make wild cells, with no efforts to ensure they use appropriately aged larvae and the resulting cell is properly fed.

Quality of a product is usually a function of how much care and attention is provided at each step of the production process. When I'm raising queens, I graft and use a cell builder, and have good reasons for each step in the process. I am clear with folks on one detail, I produce queens, I am NOT a breeder. We pick from our best for grafting, but, I dont spend endless hours doing freeze tests etc, I only use two criteria for selection. First is winter survival, but that's just a given, cannot graft from a queen that didn't survive the winter. Second is honey production the prior year. We weigh supers coming off hives, so I have a record of honey produced for each colony.

Why do I raise queens the way I do ?

- Grafting allows me precise control of the age of the larva that goes in each queen cell. Wild cells can come from larvae that isn't at the ideal age when it's chosen to make a queen cell. I always graft significantly more cups than I need, and they come from a frame where I have confirmed fresh eggs a few days prior. I graft on Wednesday, so we confirm frames that have eggs standing on end Sunday afternoon. When you look at them on Wednesday you will often see small puddles of jelly in the bottom of the cell, and without the magnification I cannot see a larvae in that puddle. that's ideal age larvae. If they are curled into the C shape they are getting a bit on the old side.

- I use a cloak board system for qeenless start and queenright finish. I create this colony at the start of the season by combining the core of two brood nests into a single stack with the cloak board in place. I go thru it on my weekly schedule and move capped brood up above the excluder, and make sure there is empty comb below. It's a two box system that's always on the verge of swarming, loaded with bees and I have to manipulate frames to keep it that way.

- My builder hive always has a 15% patty from Global patties on when they are raising cells. They also get 2 cups of syrup when the cell bars go in.

- I use jzbz cups and go back 48 hours after graft. Any cups that are not full to the brim with royal jelly get culled at this point.

- My mating nucs are made up with 5 half size deep frames, and they have _at least_ 3 seams full of bees at start of season to ensure they can keep the cell properly incubated till it emerges. As season progresses we have to shake bees out of them regularly. I harvest queens 3 weeks after placing cells if there is at least one full sheet of capped brood, and we look carefully at the pattern before marking and caging that queen. If it's at all a shotgun pattern, she gets pinched rather than caged.

The final product is something I would pay good money for to purchase myself because for us the raising of queens is about the quality at each step of the process.

So behind door number one is a queen in a cage, she came when somebody threw a bunch of bees in a box then returned in a month to cage her. Behind door number two is a queen in a cage that just came out of one of my mating nucs. Both are the same price, which would you rather have ?
 

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Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?
yes... not good or modern queen rearing but queen rearing none the less...
in its most basic form and inclusive definition queen rearing is human induced production of queens.

keep an eye on this SARE project at UMASS https://projects.sare.org/sare_project/one19-326/
It has been said they are going to test micro/"pauper" walk away splits. Sam comfort has been working with 1/2 deep frame splits. it apears they draw more cells and then tear down the poor ones, leaveing better queens... but the results have been inconsistent..

By far the worst way to make queens is to make a hive queen less and then break it up in to a bunch of nucs.. my experience is nless then 50% of those queens are any good (sam says only 20%)

I have a great example of this right now in an out yard.. booming hive had to be split late march to prevent swarming and I hadn't even set up cell builders yet.. did a fly back split, once cells were capped pulled 2 nucs out of the dubble deep and set them side by side
pinched the rest of the cells in the dubble and used it for 2 rounds of cell building.
nucs grew out and were supered in common so it runs as a 2 queen hive.. so same location, same gentnics, same work force! and one queen is producing 1/2 the brood of the other

I sudder when I hear of people paying good money for E-queen nucs
 

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Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

msl,
queen away or queen stay?
What did you leave for brood and nurse bees?
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

I guess one can call it queen rearing if you throw a few bees in a box and let them grow out a queen cell. Question I would ask, is that a quality product that you would want to buy ? Conversely, is it a quality product you would be comfortable selling? Throwing bees in a box is essentially allowing the bees to make wild cells, with no efforts to ensure they use appropriately aged larvae and the resulting cell is properly fed.

Quality of a product is usually a function of how much care and attention is provided at each step of the production process. When I'm raising queens, I graft and use a cell builder, and have good reasons for each step in the process. I am clear with folks on one detail, I produce queens, I am NOT a breeder. We pick from our best for grafting, but, I dont spend endless hours doing freeze tests etc, I only use two criteria for selection. First is winter survival, but that's just a given, cannot graft from a queen that didn't survive the winter. Second is honey production the prior year. We weigh supers coming off hives, so I have a record of honey produced for each colony.

Why do I raise queens the way I do ?

- Grafting allows me precise control of the age of the larva that goes in each queen cell. Wild cells can come from larvae that isn't at the ideal age when it's chosen to make a queen cell. I always graft significantly more cups than I need, and they come from a frame where I have confirmed fresh eggs a few days prior. I graft on Wednesday, so we confirm frames that have eggs standing on end Sunday afternoon. When you look at them on Wednesday you will often see small puddles of jelly in the bottom of the cell, and without the magnification I cannot see a larvae in that puddle. that's ideal age larvae. If they are curled into the C shape they are getting a bit on the old side.

- I use a cloak board system for qeenless start and queenright finish. I create this colony at the start of the season by combining the core of two brood nests into a single stack with the cloak board in place. I go thru it on my weekly schedule and move capped brood up above the excluder, and make sure there is empty comb below. It's a two box system that's always on the verge of swarming, loaded with bees and I have to manipulate frames to keep it that way.

- My builder hive always has a 15% patty from Global patties on when they are raising cells. They also get 2 cups of syrup when the cell bars go in.

- I use jzbz cups and go back 48 hours after graft. Any cups that are not full to the brim with royal jelly get culled at this point.

- My mating nucs are made up with 5 half size deep frames, and they have _at least_ 3 seams full of bees at start of season to ensure they can keep the cell properly incubated till it emerges. As season progresses we have to shake bees out of them regularly. I harvest queens 3 weeks after placing cells if there is at least one full sheet of capped brood, and we look carefully at the pattern before marking and caging that queen. If it's at all a shotgun pattern, she gets pinched rather than caged.

The final product is something I would pay good money for to purchase myself because for us the raising of queens is about the quality at each step of the process.

So behind door number one is a queen in a cage, she came when somebody threw a bunch of bees in a box then returned in a month to cage her. Behind door number two is a queen in a cage that just came out of one of my mating nucs. Both are the same price, which would you rather have ?
This is what I expect when i hear "queen rearing" or "queen raising" and it definitely sounds like a full time deal. Very time critical and well disciplined.
 

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Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

queen and 1 frame of open brood left at the old site in new box
old boxs with the rest of the resources moved 8' down the outher end of the stand
after e-cells were drawn old boxs were moved 4' (to the center of the stand) and the pulled nucs were placed side by side in its location.
the old boxs after moved to center were used fro 2 rounds of cellbuilding.. (nice fat cells and good performing queens, pinched about 10% of the virgins before placeing in mateing nucs)
After the virgins emerged (as had all the brood ) the old boxs in the center they were given a shot of OAV and shook out to stock mini mating nucs
the boxes/combs were then given to the old location to make it a dubble deep and the dubble nuc to make it a 10 over 5x5
 

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Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

Appreciate the details. Been debating in my head how many brood frames and how many nurse bees makes sense for the amount of foragers.

Your sequence of moving the foragers back to the nucs makes sense. Closer to the Snelgrove sequence. The old queens fate?
 
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