[GregB]

I begin to wonder how and where exactly these researchers obtain their samples - to then produce the nation-wide conclusions.

While this statement generally agrees with Dr. Harpur's project findings - setting the C-lineage to 94% is too much while finding the O-lineage at 0% just makes no sense.

Whatever happened to all those Caucasian bees one can freely buy in the USA - they don't exist?
Or are these Caucasian bees fake?

No Black bees or African bees have been for sale forever - and the genetic traces are still found (but yet no Caucasians).

That alone does not look right from the very beginning.
This sampling is just unreliable and/or skewed - as it represents mostly the commercials and the urban/suburban hobbyists only, IMO.

94 percent of U.S. honeybees belonged to the North Mediterranean C lineage. Data reflected that the remainder of genetic diversity belongs to the West Mediterranean M lineage (3%) and the African A lineage (3%).

DNA research finds low genetic diversity among US honeybees (phys.org)

 

[HarryVanderpool]

Take a look at Deborah A Delaney's work.
She has delved into this more than anyone I know.

 

[GregB]

Take a look at Deborah A Delaney's work.
She has delved into this more than anyone I know.

OK, her thesis:
Microsoft Word - total_thesis.doc (wsu.edu)

At least she properly differentiates managed populations (up to 96% C-lineage) from the feral populations (much higher M-lineage).

Even then I see no mention of O-lineage.
Strange - as if they don't/didn't exist.

 

[squarepeg]

this fellow has some papers that might interest you greg:

Allen L. Szalanski | Faculty | University of Arkansas

 

[squarepeg]

also:

[PDF] Genetic Evidence for Honey Bees (Apis mellifera L.) of Middle Eastern Lineage in the United States - Free Download PDF

1 Genetic Evidence for Honey Bees (Apis mellifera L.) of Middle Eastern Lineage in the United States by Roxane Magnus &a...

silo.tips

 

[HaplozygousNut]

Perhaps the commercial Italian bees are breeding towards purity to their kind even though they are open mated? I saw a study somewhere here on Beesource about the commercial bees in Australia having just the C lineage, but the feral bees had M lineage and A lineage (?) genes also. One person on that topic said it was as if there was an invisible barrier between the commercial bee population and feral population.

It would explain how Italian bees stay at least rather pure and are dominant in beekeeping all over the world where you would expect to have a variable mixture of different subspecies of bees because of the different climates. Well, actually the commercial Italian bees are a mixture of Carnica and Italian from the genetic studies done, even with the commercial Italian bees in Italy...

It could be that a particular strain of Carnica and Italian mixture is an adaptive mixture for commercial beekeeping or the Italian bee in the wild throughout Italy is a mixture of Carnica and Ligustica.

It could be harder to find feral bees if the feral bees were more selective in nesting sites, such as needing a certain height off the ground, and reduced entrance size. I went to the mountains this year, and two swarms nested in bee boxes near the ground with no reduced entrances. I have not had this happen before here in central NC where I am. One stack of bee boxes they nested in was without a bottom...

Those two swarms were all light colored like Italian bees. Also, the one swarm I checked in the Fall had a whole lot of Varroa mites from just glances I took of the few bees on the inner cover. However the Varroa infestation was not bad enough to show any obvious signs of Varroa stress. The other swarm there in the mountains I wasn't able to see because the colony was moved by a beekeeping friend to another location. But I suspect it was also commercial Italian from the light coloration of all the bees.

The mountains seem to be flooded by commercial beekeepers because I keep seeing beekeepers there and one commercial beekeeper was right next door to one of the farms where we had our bees at. The commercial beekeeper was not nice to the farmer, and didn't seem to like us being there.

 

[HaplozygousNut]

The Caucasian bees may not be able to compete against other types of bees in the southern parts of the US because of the hot climate and early Spring season. Caucasian bees are known to be slow in building up during the Spring and not good for early Spring nectar flows. I know there were some Caucasian genes found in New York up north. The Caucasian bees are from the high altitudes where the season starts later in the year. The climate where the Caucasian bees are from is cool through even the summer. There are also Caucasian genetics found in the colder climate of China and the Russian Far East.

 

[Some Bloke]

Haplozygousnut stated "Italian bees stay at least rather pure and are dominant in beekeeping all over the world"

<Pedant mode ON>

Slovenia - illegal to use non Carniolans

France Ireland, Britain - Amm and similar landraces common

Africa - European bees rapidly displaced by scutella, capensis etc

South America - Africanised honeybees

Buckfasts popular in Northern Europe

 

[drummerboy]

I'm not surprised by this assertion. Some have been anecdotally saying it for several years. True? The commercialization of bees and beekeeping are dominant in the US?

There's so much we don't know about bees. Is it too late to simply trust them to lead the way? Can we? I have my doubts.

When humans don't know something we too often assume we know everything.

Sometimes the mysteries must remain mysteries imho. 🐝

 

[Knoxville1]

Regarding the lack of genetic diversity, I remember reading something to the effect that 90% of the queen stock in the U.S. comes from approximately 200 mother queens. Those of us that capture and propagate feral queens or propagate local indigenous stock are a very small percentage of U.S. beekeepers and this may be reflected in the studies that we are seeing.

 

[Gray Goose]

Regarding the lack of genetic diversity, I remember reading something to the effect that 90% of the queen stock in the U.S. comes from approximately 200 mother queens. Those of us that capture and propagate feral queens or propagate local indigenous stock are a very small percentage of U.S. beekeepers and this may be reflected in the studies that we are seeing.

5 queens per state,, not likely, many I know have 4 or more breeder queens just at their Apiary.
now the 90% can be true if some of the folks are making 1000's of daughters, on 1 queen.
Sad if true

Hence the reason for one of my threads How many queens do you plan to make this year and by...

we all can make a few to help with this issue, the 30 I make and do not order does not move the needle much but if 100's of us do this then some gain is made.

GG

 

[Knoxville1]

I think the jist of what I was reading is that there are a very few breeder queens in California, Florida and Georgia, by using artificial insemination then flooding the 'market' with very similar genetics in the commercial queens.

 

[clyderoad]

Do not despair as the genetic ingredients may still be present.
Consider this:

Source : Genetic past, present, and future of the honey bee (Apis mellifera) in the United States of America - Apidologie

 

[squarepeg]

interesting study clyde, thanks for sharing it.

 

[Gray Goose]

I think the jist of what I was reading is that there are a very few breeder queens in California, Florida and Georgia, by using artificial insemination then flooding the 'market' with very similar genetics in the commercial queens.

there is still Some variation.
each queen mates with 12 to 20 drones, each drone dies mating IE a 1 time event.
so each hive the drones come from can have then 12 to 20 different patra lines.
worker eggs and queen eggs are "fertilized" so the 1 of 12-20 applies there as well.

the collected drone sperm for the breeder queen only lasts a few days, so a weeks worth of queens can be done the same , then a new batch is needed.

GG

 

[msl]

The data showed that the nation's managed honeybee populations rely intensively on a single honeybee evolutionary lineage. In fact, 94 percent of U.S. honeybees belonged to the North Mediterranean C lineage

.

A total of 27 haplotypes were identified, 13 of them (95.11%) were already reported and 14 others (4.87%) were found to be novel haplotypes exclusive to the USA.

so more then 1/2 of the haplotypes were US only.. suggesting the often questioned "local adaption" of note there weren't any novel c1 s

so lets look at a "native" pop... right about 95% of the bees in Italy are haplotype c1a

what they found was
38.78% c1 Italian
49.3 c2 carny
3.95 c3 Buckfast
past work said

Genetic Characterization of Commercial Honey Bee (Hymenoptera: Apidae) Populations in the United States by Using Mitochondrial and Microsatellite Markers

Abstract. Genetic diversity levels within and between the two commercial breeding areas in the United States were analyzed using the DraI restriction fragment l

academic.oup.com

dosen't look like much has changed in commercial bees in 30 years

 

[HaplozygousNut]

Haplozygousnut stated "Italian bees stay at least rather pure and are dominant in beekeeping all over the world"

<Pedant mode ON>

Slovenia - illegal to use non Carniolans

France Ireland, Britain - Amm and similar landraces common

Africa - European bees rapidly displaced by scutella, capensis etc

South America - Africanised honeybees

Buckfasts popular in Northern Europe

Yes, you are right. The Italian bees are dominant in many places around the world, but it is not exactly true that Italian bees are dominant all over the world. From a photo and videos I have seen online I think there are some Saharan bees and/or Tunisian bees that are being treated for mites in Algeria (

), and black bees in Portugal being treated for mites (outono de 2022: o estado sanitário das minhas colónias a 600 m de altitude). The Varroa mite susceptibility probably means those are domesticated strains and not wild. And they are not the Italian bee because they are mostly or all black colored, and the Saharan bees look very different from Italian bees with their thin bands of hair on their abdomens.

 

[Gray Goose]

dosen't look like much has changed in commercial bees in 30 years

if the same Apiaries were sampled then no.
Last data set is 1063 hives
many keepers have more than that.
I think US has like 2 million hives. Be a tricky deal to get a 1063 sample to actually represent this mix.
And are sampling any non keeper hives IE wild?

its data true, but I do not weight it too heavy.
interesting sample, but in the US you could do 100,000 more samples like this and still have half the hives left unsampled.

GG

 

[HaplozygousNut]

Perhaps the commercial Italian bees are breeding towards purity to their kind even though they are open mated? I saw a study somewhere here on Beesource about the commercial bees in Australia having just the C lineage, but the feral bees had M lineage and A lineage (?) genes also. One person on that topic said it was as if there was an invisible barrier between the commercial bee population and feral population.
-------------------------------------

My memory was wrong about the commercial population of bees in Australia lacking the M lineage and A lineage. I googled genetics of bees in Australia and found that the feral population there is not that different from the commercial population. The commercial bees seem to have much less M lineage and more C lineage in some parts of Australia though. There was "A" lineage also, but it said that that A lineage might be Caucasian O lineage.

Genetics of Australian honey bees - Professional Beekeepers

The English black bee (Apis mellifera mellifera) was first introduced to Australia in 1822. Lugurian (A. m. ligustica) bees arrived in the early 1860s, Caucasian ... Read More

extensionaus.com.au

 

[drummerboy]

I love this discussion, but thinking about the subject often gives me headaches.

I don't mean to kick up a hornet nest, but to be frank, I just don't believe it's possible to improve any particular bee strain. The evidence is conflicting at best, and often ignores important differences between insects and mammals.

Most of the suggestive evidence is designed to prove the researchers point that is often pointless and less than helpful imho.

The efforts used to conduct such study often (always?) treat bees like cattle or dogs, both of which can be improved through what we know about DNA and crossing over at meiosis.

Bees follow a different set of rules whereby pedigree can never be fully established because virgins mate in the air, sometimes miles from their colony, making it impossible to be certain whether our grafts and/or the larva selected is a true representative of the colony. TBH; We have 'no idea' what drones she will mate with.

There are even issues with instrumental insemination in keeping genetics pure because the genetics of the virgin are always unknown.

Q; Are the labels we place upon honeybees the problem? Perhaps, especially considering the fact that drones don't get a Y chromosome through meiosis, implicating that drones cannot really be called males at all. This stuff is confounding to my small brain....but less so when I'm reminded that bees are not human...or sheep, or cattle and there is much yet to discover about these amazing creatures that we just don't know.

Therefore, I'm confidant stating that "all types or strains of bees" are developed by their particular geographic region, which is why I insist that 'our' best queens, especially those used for breeding more queens) are those that over-wintered in our own bee yards, regardless of their 'assumed' (or promoted) lineage. We call our bees Northern Sconies.

The modern beekeeping 'industry' depends on migrating bees, basically mixing up the entire gene pool and resulting in a class of bees better described as MUTTS, rather than separate or distinct races or strains. It's always been up to beekeepers to breed better bees with special help from our own bees.

If we keep depending on the industry to save bees the industry will keep creating what we've been conditioned to accept.

Thanks again for this important discussion 🐝