[GregB]

I was watching a recent video with L. Sharaskin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll0hlf-O184

(not commenting on the video contents - different subject).

At about 12:00 Leo states that Cuba is not allowing any bee treatments.
News to me!

I googled and confirmed the same:

Beekeepers are not allowed to use any chemicals (pesticides or antibiotics) in treating beehives. Varroa mites were introduced into Cuba in 1996. The only treatment permitted is drone-comb trapping to reduce the mite population. All beekeepers are trained and urged to practice this mite-control technique. The incidence of brood diseases is extremely low in the country and not considered a significant issue due to a country-wide genetic selection for hygienic behavior, which is also thought to provide protection for Varroa mites.

https://www.beeculture.com/beekeeping-in-guantanamera/

 

[Litsinger]

https://www.beeculture.com/beekeeping-in-guantanamera/

Interesting article, GregV. I enjoyed the read. There were two other comments in the article that were interesting to me:

"Annual re-queening is mandated for each colony due to the fact that some 12 honey plants in the country produce an almost continuous nectar flow. Queens in essence are “worn out” due to extended egg laying for twelve-month periods. Combs are renovated after fifteen brood cycles, sent to Apicuba for wax rendering, and returned along with replacement foundation to the beekeeper."

"Researchers on Fernando de Noronha off the coast of Brazil known for European honey bees surviving Varroa without treatment have concluded: “We predict that this honey bee population is a ticking time-bomb, protected by its isolated position and small population size. This unique association between mite and bee persists due to the evolution of low Varroa reproduction rates. So the population is not adapted to tolerate Varroa and Deformed Wing Virus, rather the viral quasispecies has simply not yet evolved the necessary mutations to produce a virulent variant.”"

 

[GregB]

Interesting article, GregV. I enjoyed the read. There were two other comments in the article that were interesting to me:

"Annual re-queening is mandated for each colony due to the fact that some 12 honey plants in the country produce an almost continuous nectar flow. Queens in essence are “worn out” due to extended egg laying for twelve-month periods. Combs are renovated after fifteen brood cycles, sent to Apicuba for wax rendering, and returned along with replacement foundation to the beekeeper."

"Researchers on Fernando de Noronha off the coast of Brazil known for European honey bees surviving Varroa without treatment have concluded: “We predict that this honey bee population is a ticking time-bomb, protected by its isolated position and small population size. This unique association between mite and bee persists due to the evolution of low Varroa reproduction rates. So the population is not adapted to tolerate Varroa and Deformed Wing Virus, rather the viral quasispecies has simply not yet evolved the necessary mutations to produce a virulent variant.”"

Yes; I noticed the same.

I immediately thought - the 12 months of non-stop brooding is actually an ideal situation for the mite explosions.
Can you imagine NO natural brood breaks whatsoever?
Crazy.
No AHB either.
Just EHB mutts - all they have.
And yet ....

Speaking of the ticking-bomb predictions - I ignore such predictions - it would have happened long ago.
What is "protected isolated position"? - They ALREADY have mites; for like 25 years.
Small population size? - that only should allow for the population crash faster.
Well, 25 years later in tropical, non-AHB zone they still have bees - the bomb should have exploded many times over by now.
Chances are good the "bomb" prediction itself is just not that good.

For sure, they have NOT been selecting for the most hardy mites these 25 years.
An interesting thought.

I rather feel this is another case similar to Far Eastern Russia in making (much faster too - tropical, no winter location - faster by about x3).

 

[Litsinger]

Good points, GregV. While I defer widely to those who are studying the dynamics closely, in my mind one must also weigh heavily the fact that they are betting their market (distorted as it may be) on the TF paradigm- so there must be adequate resiliency there (at least from the perspective of state-sponsored wholesaler) to not change what they are doing based on a potential 'crash'.

Thanks again for the good article- I enjoyed the read.

Russ

 

[msl]

Just EHB mutts - all they have.

nope
State run queen selection program and your required to by every thing from them, and sell you honey at $0.50 a pound or less to them...
Its certainly one way to shift the genetics of an island

It is worth noteing it was IMP not Bond that created the bees
https://www.apiservices.biz/en/arti...y/1972-cuban-bees-selection-varroa-resistance

 

[GregB]

nope...

MSI, a great find, this Cuban PDF.
Good document.

I meant - they do not have AHB and its associated properties (like on Puerto Rico) per what I read.
The article says - only EHB (which are mutts).
All EHB on Western hemisphere are mutts, like it or not; they basically have their own Cuban bees developed.
The only pure bees left are found at their original locations (even that is under pressure of long distance bee sales).

Right from your document - there is a strong confirmation of a local mutt population - as old as the Russian Far Easter mutt population and maybe older even.

- Honey bees are in Cuba for near 250 years.
- No bee imports is permitted.

Sounds like they treated by chems at the very onset of the Varroa.
Just on a limited basis, due to tight funding.
At that rate, it was not even worth doing - that piece-meal treatment.

- After first massive mortality Varroa provoked in 1996, follows wild and commercial population recovery process.
- To “treat” Cuban hives were registered and purchased two products: first Bayvarol® strips (flumetrine) and tree years later ApiLifeVar (essential oils).
Was tested CheckMite+® (coumafos), (Demedio et al.2004).
- Those products were acquired mainly to be used in crisis situations, economical possibilities didn’t allow buying for all hives.
- The strategy to rear new queens from surviving hives reinforced the general strategy to fight pest.

I don't care of the proclaimed official selection efforts - they have local mutt presence and this presence will not go away.
That is really their foundation, on the island.
(very likely tons of feral mutts in the bush all over, which are impossible to eradicate, especially in the tropics with no winter and the bees surviving under a branch).

 

[msl]

Given the scope and scale of the breeding and requeening program leading to improvements in honey yield and Varroa resistance I would argue they are much closer to something like buckfast or the USDA Russian program. Add in the island isolation and they are likely becoming close to there own sub species as is being sujested with the PR gAHB.

mutts mean the bees have no pedagree and are not being bred to any standard.

 

[GregB]

Given the scope and scale of the breeding and requeening program leading to improvements in honey yield and Varroa resistance I would argue they are much closer to something like buckfast or the USDA Russian program. Add in the island isolation and they are likely becoming close to there own sub species as is being sujested with the PR gAHB.

mutts mean the bees have no pedagree and are not being bred to any standard.

All the USDA Russian program did - persisted the random mutts they imported from a couple of villages.
Then they "labeled" them and sold under a trade-mark.
Just marketing..

If I could freely bring the queens from there I very well just bring the original Russians next spring (while on vacation).
Could be lining up some bees right now over the internet from some locals.
I'd label them "Russians-2020".
And sell.

PS: I know, I know - I trivialize things; but the basics are pretty darn close.

 

[msl]

All the USDA Russian program did - persisted the random mutts they imported from a couple of villages.
Then they "labeled" them and sold under a trade-mark.
Just marketing..

thats not in the least what was done (and I think you know it )
They took a base stock selected it and made a breed.
https://www.ars.usda.gov/southeast-.../docs/release-of-usda-ars-russian-honey-bees/
That breed has been maintained threw testing, controlled mating, and DNA analyzed.

You don't call a black lab a mutt because it shows several wolf subspecies in a DNA test, realy that is to be expected in a breed, drawing traits form several origins
A black lab is a black lab do to its pedigree and it meeting the breed standards.

 

[GregB]

thats not in the least what was done (and I think you know it )
They took a base stock selected it and made a breed.
https://www.ars.usda.gov/southeast-.../docs/release-of-usda-ars-russian-honey-bees/
That breed has been maintained threw testing, controlled mating, and DNA analyzed.

You don't call a black lab a mutt because it shows several wolf subspecies in a DNA test, realy that is to be expected in a breed, drawing traits form several origins
A black lab is a black lab do to its pedigree and it meeting the breed standards.

MSL,

You see - the owners of the Russian bee proper (I am talking of the Russians, including the Russian academia) are still debating IF the Far Eastern bee population can be considered a sub-species or not.
The population itself is still in early stages of forming and cross-hybridization (less than 200 years since the origination).
It is too young and has many inputs (for sure - mellifera, macedonica, caucasica, ligustica, carnica, and maybe more due to uncontrolled importations; pretty sure the importations not longer occur).

It seems that the general trend is now to call those Russian bees - a "primitive" subspecies as-in just now coming out of the formation period.
If anyone, I would consider the "bee owners" to be the prime experts on the bee that they own.
So - the Russians are still basically considered unstable mutts (not stable enough to just be a sub-species like carnica, etc).

What contributes also - the Russian Far East is not an island - it is an area similar to Wisconsin in size (AND China just across the border - somehow we always ignore China as if a non-factor - a wrong approach - as if the Chinese keep no bees - what? why is this ignored alltogether?).

One can not take an unstable mutt and quickly produce a "stable breed" with all the stable and long-term sustainable properties.
Expect regressions and diversions - just as your document says about the USDA program mentions.

We cannot predict the Varroa resistance or honey production of all the different hybrids that will be produced in the country.

They essentially persisted a mutt population they plucked out of the Far East - to be sure it corresponds to the originals.
That is the goal - to persist a copy-cat population here so to emulate the Far East.

(makes sense - they can NOT continuously be bringing the queens over and over and over...
must create a "copy population" here, locally - the one that replicates the imported population as close as possible...

a population of Far Eastern mutts, but maintained in the US - that is).

 

[GregB]

....
They essentially persisted a mutt population they plucked out of the Far East - to be sure it corresponds to the originals.
That is the goal - to persist a copy-cat population here so to emulate the Far East.

(makes sense - they can NOT continuously be bringing the queens over and over and over...
must create a "copy population" here, locally - the one that replicates the imported population as close as possible...
a population of Far Eastern mutts - that is).

I would largely ignore this last statement from the USDA proclamation (totally understandable - people need to make living - I support it and the work they do is still beneficial):

First, it is and will be developed as a stock in its own right. Second, it will be bred in ways that it will be useful as a source of genetic material to enhance existing stocks of honey bees, especially in regard to resistance to both V. jacobsoni and Acarapis woodi. Hence, ARS Russian honey bees, and the breeding program to further improve them, are a resource for all of American beekeeping.

A similar statement is mostly needed to justify the program's existence and sustainable funding..
Simply put - politics of most any project require this kind of a thing - an honorable, open-ended goal.


Added:
I also realized - the USDA document is dated 2000;
today we are just about in 2020;
So - do we have a stable Russian breed yet with very well defined and persisted traits and appearance?
It's been 20 years.


All we see from readings of the BS - how different them Russians are - most everyone has a somewhat different experience - it only makes sense.

 

[GregB]

But seriously...
What happened to the USDA Russian bee program?

The last document on the relevant page is dated 2007.
Today is just about 2020.
Nothing happened the last 13 years?
https://www.ars.usda.gov/southeast-area/baton-rouge-la/honeybeelab/docs/russian-honey-bees/

They point to "Russian Honey Bee Breeders Association, Inc."
That page is largely dead and old.
The newest PDF hanging on this site is dated 2011 (maybe I missed something).
http://www.russianbreeders.org/

What is up?

 

[grozzie2]

I would largely ignore this last statement from the USDA proclamation

If you cherry pick your sources and ignore those that dont fit your views, it's very easy to develop a set of data points that do fit your views.

 

[Biermann]

Hello, interesting test field, Cuba being organic by lack of foreign support or/and currency volume.

This may be true for inland product and consumption, but where a national currency strategy is involved, cigars as example that all countries outside of Cuba gobble-up for extreme high prices, it is different.

I was lucky to visit several tobacco plantations several years ago and was explained the organic statement for Cuba and all state induced wisdom until I had to go around a building (with permission) to relieve myself and found a large pile of Bayer, Syngenta insecticide and fungicide containers.

It would be interesting to really see if Cuban bees are varroa resident, controlling or fighting.

The 12 month/year brood bearing fact should be available from any country north & south of the equator and if this was so bad, all honey production in thus countries should have collapsed, but have not.

It (varroa)seems to me more of a problem in the medium tempered countries then the extreme hot or cold climates.

 

[Litsinger]

GregV:

The latest Kentucky 'BeeLines' publication has an article about Cuban beekeeping (p. 5 + 6):

https://kybees.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/BEELINES-JANUARY-2020.pdf

 

[GregB]

GregV:

The latest Kentucky 'BeeLines' publication has an article about Cuban beekeeping (p. 5 + 6):

https://kybees.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/BEELINES-JANUARY-2020.pdf

Thanks Russ.

 

[GregB]

Catching up on some of the TF podcasts from Solomon Parker.
http://parkerbees.com/index.html

On the podcast #74, the guest is talking about the Cuban bee experience - interesting - very defensive bees observed, reportedly.
At about minute 13:00 and on.

 

[Litsinger]

On the podcast #74, the guest is talking about the Cuban bee experience - interesting - very defensive bees observed, reportedly.

Interesting podcast, GregV. Thanks for posting. Cuba sounds like a stifling place to keep bees... glad we still have the freedom to experiment.

 

[johno]

Glad that we still have freedom period.

 

[Litsinger]

Glad that we still have freedom period.

Well said, Johno. Happy New Year to you and your family.

Russ