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psycain -
Try using the search box here on Beesource to look for the old threads that fusion_power started a few years ago. He has researched and analyzed many of the hive designs, and finally elected to switch over to "Modified Square Jumbo Dadant"
(= Brother Adam) beehive. I believe he had 50 of them made, and would now have a couple seasons under his belt.
I will try to find some of those threads - there were 3 significant discussions as I recall, mostly in the "Queen and breeding" section. I'll post what I find.
 

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OK here is the main one - "Hive designs and their advantages and disadvantages" started by Fusion_power at 2:04pm on 6-22-2016

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?327565-Hive-designs-and-their-advantages-and-disadvantages

The first few pages there is a bit of bickering between Michael Bush and Fusion_power, then it gets into the good info. Post#17 and #41 by Bernard Huevel are "DO NOT MISS". He had used "Brother Adam" hives in Germany for 13 years by that point and gives us all a huge starting point with that style hive. By all means, read the entire thread.

Another good link was started by shinbone in 2015:

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?320011-jumbo-or-extra-large-hive-bodies-source

Another important read is Camille Pierre Dadant's 1920 book, Dadant System of Beekeeping, where so many of the reasons for why this or that frame size and beehive design are so awesome are given. A link is given near the bottom of Bernard Huevel's post #41 in the first thread above (not shinbone's thread). You'll need some time to read this one - it's 127 pages long, but worth every second!

oops! almost 2:00 am here on the West Coast, I gotta' go to bed. Good night.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Thanks for the links. I try to read them maybe today in the metro.

But still the hive is not important. I´ts all about the management.
Heuvel is one of the supporters of that method. But also the biggest beekeeping school we have.
Not everyone shares his or even Brother Adams view about the hive size.
They prefere it mainly because of the free space to shift frames or to us a frame feeder.

Heuvel just wrote a book about the Dadant frame and the customized broodnest.

I´m actually reading a german book about Dadant. It´s a summary of Dadants book, Adams and of course Hans Beers, who started to cluster the broodnest . Kind of a evolution thing.
 

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Customized? Nice term...

But still the hive is not important. I´ts all about the management.
The hive is the tool. The management is the use of that tool. Of course you can use a stone to drive a nail in. But why don't use a hammer? What I want to say is: management is not all, it is one part.


Heuvel is one of the supporters of that method. But also the biggest beekeeping school we have.
I am not a school. I am a professional beekeeper. Of course, I am giving talks and such, but that doesn't make me a school. :scratch:


They prefere it mainly because of the free space to shift frames or to us a frame feeder.
Hmm...no.

Maybe you read my book and/or Bro Adam again. Size matters, in beekeeping too.

For example: it makes a huge difference, if you winter bees on 30 or 35 kg winter stores. Why? Because bees ADAPT their winter cluster size to the winter provisions. If you want a huge population at the very start of the season, you better don't save on feeding bees before(!) winter.

You can winter bees on six Dadant frames, yes. But to keep pop size at a high level, you need more frames. One Dadant frame holds 4 kg of honey/winter food. The rest is simple mathematics.

Another and more basic thought is: you need to ADAPT (or in your words: customise) the size of the broodnest to the size of the bee colony. Bro Adam exactly chose this size of 12 (13) frames of Dadant, because you can keep even a huge colony with a strong queen in such a hive, over all seasons. Winter and summer. So you are able to adapt it to a huge colony – which you can't in a smaller hive.

If you never want a huge hive, or are able to produce a huge population, go with smaller hives. Or keep on stacking boxes (because stacking boxes is such a unnecessary fun activity). If you want to be able to adapt/customise, then you need a large hive box.


Heuvel just wrote a book about the Dadant frame and the customized broodnest.
It will be translated to English and Russian and in print next year. 400 pages and weighs 1.2 kg, which is bad for international mailing. :pinch:
 

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Post#17 and #41 by Bernard Huevel are "DO NOT MISS". He had used "Brother Adam" hives in Germany for 13 years by that point and gives us all a huge starting point with that style hive.
Something here doesn't add-up. For several years I remember Bernhard enthusing about the Warre beehive over on the Bio-Bees beekeeping forum. If memory serves his posts were around 2007-2013 (I saved a couple of threads dated 2013 as I was also a Warre fan at that time). I well remember him building large numbers of them - which were very impressive - and so at that time they were clearly considered by him as being the hive of choice. But Warre hives and Dadant hives are at totally opposite ends of the 'beehive spectrum'. I can't imagine two more dissimilar hive designs.

Perhaps Bernhard would kindly throw some light on this apparent contradiction in hive choice ?

On a personal note, I'm currently renewing my former interest in the Warre format now that I've found a means of integrating two very different frame sizes - and so I'd be most interested to hear what Bernhard has to say about his experiences with the Warre hive.
'best,
LJ
 

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Discussion Starter #26
Re: Customized? Nice term...

The hive is the tool. The management is the use of that tool. Of course you can use a stone to drive a nail in. But why don't use a hammer? What I want to say is: management is not all, it is one part.
I am not a school. I am a professional beekeeper. Of course, I am giving talks and such, but that doesn't make me a school. :scratch:
oh sry I meant you and a school(Armbruster) are supporting it.

I understand your point but how often do you really have a colony on 13 frames?
The whole world is using 10-frame Langstroth, 1 box and they are fine.

So I think you can customize Langstroth or 10-frame Dadant the same way without loosing anything.
 

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But Warre hives and Dadant hives are at totally opposite ends
When I switched from hobbyist beekeeper to professional beekeeper I had to make a decision.

The Warré hive is quite vertical which is ok for stationary beekeeping. You can't make enough honey without migrating your bees, so the vertical shape of the hive was a clear disadvantage. I moved 150 Warré hives for some seasons, so I know what that does mean. A more broader shape is better for the transportation and palletizing.

A clear disadvantage was also the two brood boxes compared to one. While there is no swarm control in the Warré system, you need to prevent swarms in order to make enough honey to make a living. Checking Warré hives is much to laborious and slow to be efficient.

One Warré honey super only takes about 13 kg. To make the same amount of honey, you need more supers in the Warré system. More supers, more frames, more frame handling. Again, that wasn't efficient and simply to much work for the same honey.

A huge disadvantage is that you can't use standard equipment for Warré hives. Extracting lines, pallets, name it. All had to be custom made and build. Which costs extra and spare parts not available.

Last it simply is not possible to exceed 60 kg of honey with a Warré under the local conditions here, while it is easy to get 80-100 kg of honey with the Brother Adam hive. With much much less work. Less work, more return. Effective and efficient. That is what you need under the price pressure of the honey market to make a living. You can't play much when you need to pay your bills with your honey. Simple truth that everybody finds out who lives the life of a professional beekeeper.

So after some years of small scale experiments with the Brother Adam hive, the results directed my decisions.
 

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I will want a copy of the English version of your book, Bernard, all 1.2 Kg of it and autographed, please. PM me for where to send the money - I'll try to line up getting some Deutchmarks, and I'll need to know how many of them. Danke.

**************

By the way, is anyone making Dadant / Brother Adam frames out of thicker wood to handle the wire tension over so long a side bar? I cringe at the thought of the bent frame members - always was a problem with U.S. standard Langstroths 9-1/8" deeps. How thick before they can take it? I've always used a lot of tension on the wires to keep the brood combs from sagging. I'm thinking of going to 5/8ths-inch side bars and 7/8ths-inch thick bottom bars, but if anyone knows to go thicker, it may save me a lot of work. Thank you.
 

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By the way, is anyone making Dadant / Brother Adam frames out of thicker wood to handle the wire tension over so long a side bar? I cringe at the thought of the bent frame members - always was a problem with U.S. standard Langstroths 9-1/8" deeps. How thick before they can take it? I've always used a lot of tension on the wires to keep the brood combs from sagging. I'm thinking of going to 5/8ths-inch side bars and 7/8ths-inch thick bottom bars, but if anyone knows to go thicker, it may save me a lot of work. Thank you.
I've called just about every woodenware maker I can think of. No one will make the 11 1/4" dadant frame. The only one that may in the future is Humble abode who said that can't right now. I have decided to just make my own frames. I used 3/8 end bars and they bowed under tension. I used mann lake top bars and they have held up fine. I now have to decide if I want 1 1/2 (12 frame) frame spacing or use the industry standard of 1 3/8"(13 frame). Using the 1 1/4" (14 frame) spacing as FP does isn't for me. But either way the end bars need beefing up for sure. Pretty sure 5/8 will do it, possibly 1/2" may work.

Might use this design of frame as the french do: (Richard Noel) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmt5o6SNZpQ
 

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3/8" is plenty thick for an 11 1/4" endbar unless you are using some unusually soft and weak wood. Or you are torqing the wire unusually tight. All you are trying to do is support the foundation, not hold up the Golden Gate Bridge. Even the 5/16" thick end bars that have bowed in have not caused me much problems. A friend brought me Jumbo frames from a recent Apiamondia. Made by Thorne or Swienty. I will try and remember to measure how thick they are.



By the way, is anyone making Dadant / Brother Adam frames out of thicker wood to handle the wire tension over so long a side bar? I cringe at the thought of the bent frame members - always was a problem with U.S. standard Langstroths 9-1/8" deeps. How thick before they can take it? I've always used a lot of tension on the wires to keep the brood combs from sagging. I'm thinking of going to 5/8ths-inch side bars and 7/8ths-inch thick bottom bars, but if anyone knows to go thicker, it may save me a lot of work. Thank you.
I've called just about every woodenware maker I can think of. No one will make the 11 1/4" dadant frame. The only one that may in the future is Humble abode who said that can't right now. I have decided to just make my own frames. I used 3/8 end bars and they bowed under tension. I used mann lake top bars and they have held up fine. I now have to decide if I want 1 1/2 (12 frame) frame spacing or use the industry standard of 1 3/8"(13 frame). Using the 1 1/4" (14 frame) spacing as FP does isn't for me. But either way the end bars need beefing up for sure. Pretty sure 5/8 will do it, possibly 1/2" may work.

Might use this design of frame as the french do: (Richard Noel) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmt5o6SNZpQ
 

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If you go to half inch or 5/8 sidebar you would have to custom make the top bars too. A work around would be to make the thicker side bars and reduce the ends only, to fit the 3/8 notches in standard top bars.

So far I have just made the taller sidebars standard 3/8 thick; not entirely sure yet how committed I am to the Dadant depth frames.
 

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little_john "there are plenty of dummies in this apiary" - not joking - the greenhouse, I just realized is a great place to hang frames for the winter. Using sunlight to avoid moth issues - true?

I am building a small "high tunnel" this Fall for extended vegetable gardening and such. It would seem to be a simple issue to adapt a northly section for hanging frames and storing boxes.
 

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Clayton, Oliver, and Frank - Thank you for the input. I do use a bit more tension than most beek's. so I'll probably go with the 5/8ths or even 3/4 inch x 1.240 inch sidebars.

Holding up the Golden Gate sounds like it would require some time on the old calculator, so I'll just twist the nails until I get a little bit of tone - not the high note on a banjo, just "twang" instead of "duh". That usually holds the foundation straight until the combs are drawn out to the edges. I just don't think a 3/8 inch bar that long will stay straight very long.

I did have the idea to make them 3/4 inch and cut zip strips into the side bars so that the foundation is solidly attached. I might not regret that. Not that much more work, and only for the brood frames.

The honey will be all standard frames, 12 to a square box. I tried shallow (5-11/16th inch) boxes to save on the weight, but also made one medium to see how bad it was. It is no too heavy for me, so I'll probably go with medium (6-11/16ths inch) Illinois boxes & frames. That's another week in a moderate flow, and another half day in the avocado and in the oranges during the peak honey production, plus I don't have to make as many boxes nor purchase / make so many frames.

I see that Richard Noel appears to be using roughly 1/2 inch thick side bars. His frames are more simple and perhaps not as strong as I make them, but they do look sufficient.
 

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I suppose it would not be that difficult to just widen the notches in a standard top bar.

Vertical or W zig zag wiring would better support foundation sag and not spring even a standard sidebar. Propolis Etc. out of Canada sells a dadant foundation wired this way.

I only crosswire a few frames now but have found the wire crimper amazing. You can string frame so loose there is no twang at all, then selectively tighten them with the crimper.

Where there is a will, there is a way.
 

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Thank you for the heads-up, Frank. I'll certainly try their foundation wired like that. Hope they carry 5.1 mm cell size.
 
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