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Discussion Starter #1
Hi,

in Germany the customized broodnest seems to be the next thing.

How do I find Informations about that in english? Is this absolutely non common?

Explanation, if you don´t know what I mean:

Dadant Hive has got 10 or 12 Frames. Over the year, not in the winter, we use 4-7 frames and a dummy board for the brood box.
Customized, because it depends on the egg laying rate of the queen. The brood nest should not store honey and only a bit pollen.
In mid February all not used frames leave the box.

Some reasons are: compact nest for less tempering with less nursing bees, bees live longer, less swarms

For the beekeeper advantages are less frames to observe and work with generally, more honey and only one broodbox. New frames are only given for the winter to store food.


I can´t imagine we are the only ones who work like that :D
 

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I think what you are describing resembles beekeepers over this way using one deep brood box. There are discussions on BS, but there really isn't a name or tag for it. U of G in Canada does this method.
As for reducing with dummy or follower boards, I do not think that is a practice I have heard of as a method of beekeeping, but it is commonly done as a response to help a small colony, especially for over wintering. J
 

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It's a method that Doolittle used - he reduced the brood nest of a 15-frame hive to six Gallup frames (which are the same depth, but somewhat smaller than Dadant frames) for winter, using two division boards. I'm about to reduce the brood nest of my Gallup Long Hive (for the first time) in exactly that way.

There's also the example given in: https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?358931-6-framer-larger-scale-commercial-grade-mobile-operator where the guy uses a six-frame brood box (with Dadant frames) during winter rather than using boards.

So the principle itself - although not that common - is not unheard of. :)
LJ
 

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Discussion Starter #4
But it´s not about wintering. Wintering is mostly with 10 frames full of food. Some use insulated boards on the sides.

A Six Frame box wouldn´t work for the summer, not enough space. And of course you cant use supers on that.
The free space in the box is for the useless bees to hang around. So they do not disturb the nursing bees. And they don´t feel overcrowded.
 

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But it´s not about wintering. Wintering is mostly with 10 frames full of food. Some use insulated boards on the sides.
Ok - I mis-read your post.

A Six Frame box wouldn´t work for the summer, not enough space. And of course you cant use supers on that.
There's no reason why you can't super a six-frame box (or even a five-frame box).
Suggest you check out the link I posted - that's exactly what that guy does - commercially. :)
I often super 5-frame boxes (as a side-liner) - as do lots of other people.
'best
LJ
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I watched the video about that.
Why should someone do that with that tiny honey supers :D it looks like a lot of more work instead of using a normal box with the board and normal 10-frame supers on it.

And how do you get 40 pound food in that tiny box for wintering?
 

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I watched the video about that.
Why should someone do that with that tiny honey supers :D it looks like a lot of more work instead of using a normal box with the board and normal 10-frame supers on it.

And how do you get 40 pound food in that tiny box for wintering?
This is exactly what many people say.
Meanwhile the guy just smiles and keeps extracting the honey from his 100-hive trailer ALL summer long - May to August.
Nothing wrong with the work IF you keep extracting honey to sell it.
You should study the method before commenting.

6 full Dadant frames can easily give you the 40 pounds (though it is not required in the said setting - the most southern Russia).
Again, you are commenting without taking the time to understand the methodology and its context.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Of course I understand this is alike.
It is like me using a single super for brood. But that's not the standard.

Normally you have above the brood about 3 or 4 supers with 30, 40 frames. So he would need about 6 to 8 supers?

I would never go in the winter under 8 frames. There must be enough space for brood and pollen.
 

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Of course I understand this is alike.
It is like me using a single super for brood. But that's not the standard.

Normally you have above the brood about 3 or 4 supers with 30, 40 frames. So he would need about 6 to 8 supers?

I would never go in the winter under 8 frames. There must be enough space for brood and pollen.
The so-called standards are not the law to follow.
Everyone does what they want and what they are able to.

Sure - nothing wrong with 6-8-10 supers.
As in here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDeej-1B4zs&t=1s

Just as well nothing wrong with taking off the full, capped supers into extraction, and replacing them with blanks - and keeping doing this so not to have too many supers.

People successfully winter on 5 frames.
People also successfully winter mating micro-nucs.
So your personal prescription is just that - a prescription that works for you.
 

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I watched the video about that.
Why should someone do that with that tiny honey supers :D it looks like a lot of more work instead of using a normal box with the board and normal 10-frame supers on it.

And how do you get 40 pound food in that tiny box for wintering?
The way I understand it is the bees have a smaller cluster smaller box takes less honey to heat the smaller size in theory.
 

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Carniolan bees generally will regulate their population according to stores available. I dont think you need anywhere near 10 dadant size frames to have enough stores. I have never had them run out of stores even in 10 standard langstroth deeps. Usually way more honey than necessary for 5 months with no forage and -35C . Some Italian bees might need a bit of creative feeding to make them shut down brood rearing but I bet they will winter well if you do your part.

So there is no one answer to such a question. Location, controlling winter, the pattern of your flows, the beekeepers timing on when he pulls the honey, type of bee etc.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
People successfully winter on 5 frames.
People also successfully winter mating micro-nucs.
So your personal prescription is just that - a prescription that works for you.
But the thing is, to work with your standard hives and not with specials.

And if u have a 6, 10 or 12 frame you always use the dummy board. In february/march you can see how much your queen can manage. This could be 2-7 frames. Without the dummy a 2 frame queen would not produce any or much honey. After customizing the nest, they can work more efficient.

This year I tried that. I customized on 3 frames in february. I stored some food frames behind the dummy. I couldnt recognize very well if they need 3 or 4 frames. When I checked again in April, they used a 4th frame behind the dummy. So I kept that until the last harvest and gave them 9 frames. I will check in October if I can remove an empty one.

To sum up, it´s not about the hive size.
The nest size will be customized after the egg laying rate to produce a more efficient and bigger collony. The free space in the brood box is always used by bees to hang around.
 

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But the thing is, to work with your standard hives and not with specials.

And if u have a 6, 10 or 12 frame you always use the dummy board. In february/march you can see how much your queen can manage. This could be 2-7 frames. Without the dummy a 2 frame queen would not produce any or much honey. After customizing the nest, they can work more efficient.

This year I tried that. I customized on 3 frames in february. I stored some food frames behind the dummy. I couldnt recognize very well if they need 3 or 4 frames. When I checked again in April, they used a 4th frame behind the dummy. So I kept that until the last harvest and gave them 9 frames. I will check in October if I can remove an empty one.

To sum up, it´s not about the hive size.
The nest size will be customized after the egg laying rate to produce a more efficient and bigger collony. The free space in the brood box is always used by bees to hang around.
psycain89-Germany,
If anyone here is a proponent of dummy boards and variable nest sizes - this is me.
In this regard, customized brood-nest and dummy boards - nothing new, but rather a routine as for me.
20191123_161922.jpg 20191103_134241.jpg 20190815_191257.jpg 20190815_194407.jpg 20171029_162036.jpg

As far as the "standards" go - this is the Lang system in the US (which is nothing other than a fruit crate standardized in 19th century for large-scale commercial beekeeping).
Not my cup of tea.
I much prefer other "standards" which are many (even Dadant "standard" if that matters).
Of course my default "standard" is the Ukrainian standard (or modified Layens if prefer to call it that way).
 

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I have run 12 frame hives very successfully with no dummy boards since I built 12 frame Jumbo hives in 1978/79. I do have one 3/8" follower board to take up extra space. Twelve Hoffman frames leave that big an extra space in a 19 7/8" wide box. Every year those huge brood chambers out shine my 8 and 10 frame fives with 9 1/8" deep frames. I will try to take a picture of the crop that is on them this year. It might be the last crop we get too. Too any hives, too many sites, too much honey. But I did again sell out all of last years honey and wax as we started extracting this year.


 

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Sounds like hobbyist heaven with no plan to produce surplus honey to me.
It is a beautiful thing to have a hobby and do whatever the heck you want regardless of outside advice and opinions.
Personally, I get more than enough surplus honey for my needs, and then some.
No - I don't sell honey and don't care to.
Maintaining computer information systems pays a whole lot more and does not depend on weather.
LOL
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Here it is not really an operating mode for hobbyists, they are still managing 2 brood boxes.

Most of our professional beekeepers work with the customized broodnest right now, no matter which frame size (Dadant, Langstroth, Zander, DNM).

So I was wondering why it isnt such a thing outside our country. The standard we have is working with 2 brood boxes. This is for a professional beekeeper not really easy to handle a lot of hives.
They changed the German frame sizes dadantish for example "DNM" to "DNM 1,5", "Zander" to "Zadant" or changed all hives directly to Dadant.
 

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So I was wondering why it isnt such a thing outside our country.
One reason may be because, although Greg and a few others here use them - generally speaking - dummy frames have never been very popular in North America, and of course they are an essential component of what you are describing.

Personally, I wouldn't be without dummy frames - I use them for all sort of purposes. Here are some pics of a few which are currently being stored, although most are 'out there' being used within the apiary.

These are 14" x 8.5", as used in our standard 'British National' boxes, hanging between crop support wires in one of my greenhouses (I store bare frames and overwinter drawn combs in exactly the same way):



A few Gallup-sized dummies (8.5" on the left, full-sized 11.25" on the right) the top-bars of which are too short to fit the existing cropping wires:



And some really big buggers (14" x 17") with a few spare frames behind them.



So - there are plenty of dummies in this apiary :) (I'm sure there's a joke there somewhere ...)
LJ
 
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