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I made my 10:1 liquid to seed mixture. The liquid honey was about 90 degrees (from the bottling tank) and cooling. I used a large drill attachment to mix in a 5 gal bucket with honey gate. I then bottled. I stuck one jar in the fridge as a side experiment and put the rest in the basement- no thermometer but I’d guess it’s in the 50’s. I do anticipate air bubbles due to the mixer. Am i all wrong or will i get creamed honey at some point?
 

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You say 90 degrees and cooling, so i don't know what the actual temperature was. But if it was a genuine 90 degrees, that is way too hot and very likely melted the little seed crystals in your seed (starter) honey.

You'll just have to wait and see i guess. The ultimate temperature for creaming honey is 57 degrees, which includes mixing in the starter honey.
 

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Couple questions: Last year I unintentionally made some fantastic creamed honey. I am almost out of it, but I have some set aside as seed so I can make some more.
1. Preferred way of mixing? Are bubbles an issue with a drill mixer? I will only be making a small amt (2-5 gallons) so I could mix small batches by hand if I have to.
2. Storage. From the above I am assuming I should store in a cool place at least until creamed, correct?
Last year I put a 5 gal bucket of liquid honey in my basement and it creamed beautifully. My basement is cool, but not sure what the temp was. I can wait until winter to make it to be sure its cold enough. J
 

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Air bubbles are an issue if you are going to sell it, for personal use not as important. I like the drill mixer that Blue Sky sells for 5 gal. patches, looks like a cork screw, run it so it pulls from the bottom of the bucket and it doesn't stir in many bubbles.
The ideal temp. is 57 deg. if I remember right. 55 to 60 is just fine. I like my creamed honey firm so I try to store it at 70 or below.
 

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Correct, you do not want air bubbles in it, or at least not very small fine ones. They get trapped and look very unattractive in a glass jar.

Yes the temperature is important. Even if you use good quality creamed starter honey, the honey can granulate coarse if held for creaming at the wrong temperature. What should happen is the honey temperature is at or close to 57 degrees, has 10% starter added and thoroughly blended. The honey will then be completely creamed in 3 days if held at 57 degrees.

If not stirred during creaming it will be what is called "hard creamed". If you want a soft creamed, ie, can be spread on a bit of bread without too much problems, it should be stirred during creaming, which prevents the tiny crystals locking into each other. Commercial packers use a very slow continous stirrer throughout the creaming process, but for a guy doing a few gallons at home it would probably be enough to stir it up every few hours.

Also for a hobbyist without temperature control, if you can cream honey during a time of year when the ambient temperature is around 57 degrees, and have it in a basement or similar which will reduce temperature swings, you can get a fair result even though temperature varied somewhat.
 

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Correct, you do not want air bubbles in it, or at least not very small fine ones. They get trapped and look very unattractive in a glass jar.

Yes the temperature is important. Even if you use good quality creamed starter honey, the honey can granulate coarse if held for creaming at the wrong temperature. What should happen is the honey temperature is at or close to 57 degrees, has 10% starter added and thoroughly blended. The honey will then be completely creamed in 3 days if held at 57 degrees.

If not stirred during creaming it will be what is called "hard creamed". If you want a soft creamed, ie, can be spread on a bit of bread without too much problems, it should be stirred during creaming, which prevents the tiny crystals locking into each other. Commercial packers use a very slow continous stirrer throughout the creaming process, but for a guy doing a few gallons at home it would probably be enough to stir it up every few hours.

Also for a hobbyist without temperature control, if you can cream honey during a time of year when the ambient temperature is around 57 degrees, and have it in a basement or similar which will reduce temperature swings, you can get a fair result even though temperature varied somewhat.
If you don’t use 10:1, less starter more liquid honey, will it still cream? I am thinking that honey will cream naturally and the smaller amount of starter should still cream it. Is that right or am I way off?
 

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It will still cream it and it'll take a little longer but you should be fine.

For those who get bubbles in their mix when using a drill attachment you might have better luck if you run your drill slowly in reverse or buy one of the paddle drill attachments that have simple "wings" instead of any corkscrew kind of action.
 

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It will still cream it and it'll take a little longer but you should be fine.

For those who get bubbles in their mix when using a drill attachment you might have better luck if you run your drill slowly in reverse or buy one of the paddle drill attachments that have simple "wings" instead of any corkscrew kind of action.
Thank you, thats what I thought; I don’t like second guessing myself! I use the New Zealand method, not Dyce, it seems so much easier. I think it was from Oldtimer, but I’m not sure. I stir with a big spoon over about a weeks time, keeping it at room temp, then jar and chill. I pour the creaming honey over a spoon in the jar, it seems to me less air bubbles in the jar this way.
 

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If not stirred during creaming it will be what is called "hard creamed". If you want a soft creamed, ie, can be spread on a bit of bread without too much problems, it should be stirred during creaming, which prevents the tiny crystals locking into each other. Commercial packers use a very slow continous stirrer throughout the creaming process, but for a guy doing a few gallons at home it would probably be enough to stir it up every few hours.
That was the piece I have been missing, thank you! My creamed honey comes out just fine but has the consistency of cold butter. Spreads fine after you "scrape"some off with a knife.I could never figure out why and now I know. Next thing i need to figure out is how to resolve it without buying a machine.
 

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Thank you for the information.

It is so timely for me as I was given an "old tank". The tank is a stainless steel tank that was silver braised or used a tin-silver solder alloy. It has a gear drive stirrer obviously with a very low RPM ratio and a domed water heater built in; heats water first which then heats the honey.

After a bit of effort I find the whole unit is working with one tiny water leak. It had a 240Vac, 4500 watt heater which I am reducing to 1000 watts via a 115 Vac input. I prefer a slower warm up. After the clean up and a bit of painting and finding a decent food grade lubricant for the journal bearings, main stirring bearing is a sealed-ball bearing, I will attempt a smooth soft creamed honey based on your advice and the Dyce method.

Do you pasturize the honey as in the Dyce method?
 

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New Zealand method? Variations to the Dyce method? Pasteurized? I was given a piece of junk - a tank which is a 30 gallon honey creamer - I think.
 

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If you don’t use 10:1, less starter more liquid honey, will it still cream? I am thinking that honey will cream naturally and the smaller amount of starter should still cream it. Is that right or am I way off?
if you either wish for more or have less starter, rather than the > 10:1 why not do it like bread?
Take your starter do a 5:1 batch to 5 times your creamed, starter,, then do another 5:1 30-45 days later.
Rather than a 25:1 out of the gate.

Just wondering?

GG
 

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Also, another reason for stirring is that it causes the crystals to contact one another. When they do they stop growing.
When I make creamed honey I buy a commercially prepared product to use as the seed. Each subsequent batch grows a bit more course each time I use my creamed honey as seed. When that happens I just start over.
After I get it in jars I lay them on their sides so I can roll them around. You can encourage your other family members to roll them any time they are near.

Alex
 

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New Zealand method? Variations to the Dyce method? Pasteurized? I was given a piece of junk - a tank which is a 30 gallon honey creamer - I think.
the New Zealand method makes a softer cream than the Dyce Method. Warm the honey to reduce any crystals in it. Don’t pasteurize! Just warm enough to melt any crystals present, then let sit to room temp. then stir in your starter.
 

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Cloverdale " If you don’t use 10:1, less starter more liquid honey, will it still cream? I am thinking that honey will cream naturally and the smaller amount of starter should still cream it. Is that right or am I way off?

I believe 5% or 20:1 is the minimum recommendation (by Dyce?)

An issue with pasteurizing quickly by Dyce method?

I have discovered the test report by Dyce for creaming honey and updated interpretation of data by Calderone ( Cornell) . It is very extensive and covers numerous questions in my mind. Now I have to read it in detail - 80-100 pages, not easy.

The primary reason to use the Dyce method is to eliminate yeast or fermentation. That plus colder storage provides a long, viable shelf life. That is one of my goals. I talso provide a data for very fine crystal size creamed honey. My biggest problem is the "rapid cooling" requirement after heating. I have been able to use a simple "cooler" to heat and liquify crystalized honey bottles. Amazing thermal gradient top to bottom, 20F, forced me to use a fan which saves a lot of time. Small batches are much easier but 5 gallons or more is much tougher. It reminds me of when I was 15 (lied about age), working in a chemical plant mixing, heating and cooling 500 gallon chemical batches.
 

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GG " Just Wondering" - Calerone stated that more than 10:1, meaning 5:1, is a waste of "starter". A catalytic, non-linear result?
Hi .Robert, in my experience with creaming honey it will still cream with less starter. I dont use the Dyce method, I do follow what Oldtimer does. I use fresh extracted honey, and add the starter with a whisk to blend it through, let it sit about a week and stir a minimum of 2 x a day +. Then jar it. 57* till creams. I like this method because it does a softer set, it doesn’t get hard. :)
 
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