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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello,

I am looking for commercial grade Oxalic Acid Vaporizer. Please post, if anyone has any knowledge of makes that would qualify for commercial use.

Ps., but my own standard only: My definition of a commercial OA Vap. is, to treat 1,000 hives at a time without shut-down. Max. 15 seconds per treatment= 250 minutes actual treating time plus any recharge of OA, liquid, granular or table form, residue cleaning etc..

Thanks for any replies, JoergK.
 

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I was going to recommend one of Biermann's units, but then I see the OP is likely pretty familiar with them ...

I think @HarryVanderpool might be on the right track.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks, BUT (as it creeps in all the time) a ProVap (or my unit, or any build on the same principal) is not considered (IMHO) a commercial unit. A commercial unit should be used standing up, have a magazine for 100 or more charges, easily refilled, going from the front entrance, zapp - zapp - zapp.

For power, any fire force is not acceptable to me, simply for correct temp. control, I am working on a 800-1000 watt electric unit that I will be testing come December/January, welded copper construction, easy cleanable, with a small ventilator - user or cycle triggered.

This was the reason why I am looking what is on the market right now. Not necessarily copying, but the principals are relatively common knowledge.
 

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Hello,

I am looking for commercial grade Oxalic Acid Vaporizer. Please post, if anyone has any knowledge of makes that would qualify for commercial use.

Ps., but my own standard only: My definition of a commercial OA Vap. is, to treat 1,000 hives at a time without shut-down. Max. 15 seconds per treatment= 250 minutes actual treating time plus any recharge of OA, liquid, granular or table form, residue cleaning etc..

Thanks for any replies, JoergK.
Two vaporizers come to mind:

The Pro Vap EZ 110 is in my opinion probably the most bang for the buck probably not the fastest at $735.00.

ProVap EZ 110

The Vm Vaporizer is the other but at $3100.00, that is a tough one to justify economically.

VMVAPORIZER TURBO 2021
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Back at this.

Good points an particularly the mentioned units for commercial application.

Here some notes:

1. Temperature control on anything else then electric units with a PID is the same as believing in life after death.
2. Accuracy of metering the OA from loose crystal bulk supply in a container on the unit is equally luck related.
3. Is a blower of any form needed or will the sublimation of the OA set free enough water vapor to satisfactory do the job?
4. How to meter: a) granular OA with a plunger type, 1.5 gram per stroke feeder
b) OA in tablets with 1.5 gram = 1 tablet per nuc or single deep, t tablets for double deeps
c) liquid with peristaltic metering pump
I still believe greatly in a copper, band heater heated bowl, now with 800 watt.

Any thoughts? Maybe refer to my points made or add new points as we go.

Again, this is for an open discussion, not dogma
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
johno, I moved my reply from the Oxalika here:

Yes, the plan is a commercial vaporizer. The Oxalika is just one more of the units to look at, how it is build, what is good, what is bad etc. No need to re-invent the wheel when we just need to make some modifications how all is put together etc.

Presently I am just doing theoretical layouts for a system with a copper pot, 8oo watt band heater, 3/8" vapor tube, pop-on lid that has the metering unit on it and I am tending to 1.5 gram, 12 mm tablets, metered with a push button feeding one or two tables at the time for a one hive treatment dose at the time. This would give accuracy and accountability, not over or under dosing. Still PID controlled and interlocking the feed with the heat value of the pot so one can't drop a charge in a cold pot.

I still feel the 'revolver' type metering to be the best, one could have six chambers (loading tubes) above, offset from the charge tube to the vapor pot, relatively sealed, so it can be used outdoors, the cluster of loading tubes could hold a total of 600 tablets if 16" high.

The trick will be isolating the magazine of OA tablets from the 800 watt underneath and the heat migrating upward.

Lets see what I get done over a long winter. Like you, I am retired and like to tinker, work when I want, not when I have to, I did the later long-enough.

Last comment: I use to kiss a lot in my younger days, but the girls are not so ambitious anymore with old guys. But what is KISS?

Cheers, JoergK.
 

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One reason that large operators might want to shy away from the ProVap vaporizer is due having terrible procedures for it's use.
Watching Youtube videos confirms that. You will see an employee down on their knees, directly in front of the hive, with their head 12" above the vaporizer with smoke totally enveloping their head.
This is THE WRONG way to use this tool.
I will be posting a video soon showing our procedure.
Always on our feet, we shove the provap in the entrance and walk over to the adjoining pallet to clean the last cap and load the next. (we use 4 caps)
The caps, spoon and oxalic tub are on a tray. No fiddling and moving small parts around.
And you are NEVER on your knees or in a cloud of smoke.
I do not believe there is a faster way due to the constant of the vaporization time constant.
The answer isn't a better tool; its a better procedure.
 

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Harry I agree with you on procedure, it becomes more difficult with hives on pallets but for the smaller guys with rows of single hives that small hole in the back makes it so simple and easy. Once the vaporizer is inserted it hangs in the hole and you walk on to the next hive and prepare it for the next treatment. You could make your vaporizer marginally faster by insulating the bowl, this would speed up the initial start and the recovery between treatments would also be marginally faster. If you do not believe me ask Ian Steppler about that.
 

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Johno and Harry, I think you are both spot on.
Procedure is the best way to handle anything.
I ordered extra cups from Johno a little while back (excellent service and extra quick shipping I might add, thank you Johno!), I start out by filling the cups to what amount of OA is needed in each hive and sit them on top of the hives, throw an extra wet rag in the entrance of three hives and get started. by the time I am on the third hive I move the reg from the fist hive to the next hive. I can walk through 25 hive in a matter of 45 minutes from the time I stretch out a 100' cord to the time I roll the cord up. Just too easy!
Worst part is wearing a respirator, no need to start that debate up again, it is my choice to breathe air not contaminated with something!
I drilled a 1/4" hole in the bottom board rim and with the wet rag in the entrance OAV comes out of the top vent/entrance every time.
 

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sounds like theres a market for a fast and easy to use oxalic acid vaporizor. considering that I haven't seen or heard any evidence of the possibility of an "overdose" of OA, seems the easiest solution would be a very large bowl with a very large heating element and the user dumps a very large amount of oxalic acid into it and vapes away until it needs a reload. this is, of course, assuming no one has any evidence of an overdose situation. I'm pretty confident that the concentration of vaporized oxalic acid required to do any damage to bees is much higher than what is physically possible by means of vaporization with a heating element.
 

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One reason that large operators might want to shy away from the ProVap vaporizer is due having terrible procedures for it's use.
Watching Youtube videos confirms that. You will see an employee down on their knees, directly in front of the hive, with their head 12" above the vaporizer with smoke totally enveloping their head.
This is THE WRONG way to use this tool.
I will be posting a video soon showing our procedure.
Always on our feet, we shove the provap in the entrance and walk over to the adjoining pallet to clean the last cap and load the next. (we use 4 caps)
The caps, spoon and oxalic tub are on a tray. No fiddling and moving small parts around.
And you are NEVER on your knees or in a cloud of smoke.
I do not believe there is a faster way due to the constant of the vaporization time constant.
The answer isn't a better tool; its a better procedure.
Agree with your points with respect to the ProVap 110 however this is not the case at all with the ProVap EZ 110. The entire procedure does not require and would be impractical with the ProVap EZ. Did you watch the videos in the link I posted above? By the way, the ProVap EZ 110 is on sale at Mann Lake for $654.15 currently.


No caps, no spoons. Just jam the appropriate sized OA charge capsule into a bucket filled with OA and drop it down the charge tube. It vaporizes almost instantly provided you have dry OA and the proper temperature setting.

 

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My first reaction to the video, is that with this tool you are once again forced to stay in a position with smoke circling around you.
Not so with the Provap 110.Shove it in the entrance and walk with the wind in your face to the next pallet.
The down side is that I'm doing deep knee bends all day unlike the guy in the video.
Also, I would like to know more about dosing.
Are you stuck with the syringe's dose?
I like the ability to deliver the dose that I choose for a given hive size.
 

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My first reaction to the video, is that with this tool you are once again forced to stay in a position with smoke circling around you.
Not so with the Provap 110.Shove it in the entrance and walk with the wind in your face to the next pallet.
The down side is that I'm doing deep knee bends all day unlike the guy in the video.
Also, I would like to know more about dosing.
Are you stuck with the syringe's dose?
I like the ability to deliver the dose that I choose for a given hive size.
Harry build your migratory tops like some I did with strips around the sides to allow bee space on top of the top bars and then with the small hole behind that goes through that strip. No bending just work from the top and move on while it is subliming. Definitely why it was called the Easy Vap.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
sounds like theres a market for a fast and easy to use oxalic acid vaporizor. considering that I haven't seen or heard any evidence of the possibility of an "overdose" of OA, seems the easiest solution would be a very large bowl with a very large heating element and the user dumps a very large amount of oxalic acid into it and vapes away until it needs a reload. this is, of course, assuming no one has any evidence of an overdose situation. I'm pretty confident that the concentration of vaporized oxalic acid required to do any damage to bees is much higher than what is physically possible by means of vaporization with a heating element.
Sorry bwilson, I do have my problems with statements like yours and I will explain why:

In our country, bees are classified as livestock, like cows. pigs, horse etc. So, if you apply medication to them (livestock) it needs to be a registered and approved product. Perhaps the application needs to be approved. We all know OAV works, but the approach you promote could very well threaten the use of this good tool if applied uncontrolled, uninformed and not metered to the amount used per hive. Using a very large bowl, filling it with as much OA as it can hold and then blow it in the hives is not what I consider sensible or accurate dosing.

My approach is the metering of a dose for every hive, relatively exact as it can be. No shotgun approach, this can and will give beekeeping a bad name, so don't go close to it, please.

Harry VDP has it nicely put.
 

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I'm pretty certain that the label dosing rate will be increasing in the near future.
After following the research out of Florida, Georgia and Oregon; it puzzles me who and how they came up with the one gram dose.
AND the fact that this dose actually made it all the way through the EPA and onto the label!
No wonder apiculture has so many problems!
My --->GUESS<--- is that it will be tripled, based upon preliminary test results.
I'm sure we'll all be following this ongoing effort very carefully.
 

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Beirmann, I'm not advocating anything that will damage bees in any way. I was simply stating that the amount of oxalic acid that can be vaporized by conventional means can only achieve a certain ppm concentration in a given volume at a given temperature and pressure. So by loading up a huge bowl with OA and vaping away, you would only be able to fill the available space inside the hive to a certain concentration before It starts to blow out the entrance and cracks. A very similar concept to when the Teflon cap blows off the provap when the nozzle is plugged. As long as your hives aren't air tight (as if it were possible) then the concentration can only achieve a certain level. The question is whether or not that concentration is high enough to do any damage to bees. I don't believe there is any evidence to show that, however I'm not the most well read in that subject. The goal was for a fast effective vaporizer. I think a constant stream of vaporized OA place in the front entrance for a set amount of time that would fill the cavity is exactly what was requested. It's no different that the vm vaporizer in concept.
 

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The problem with following the darn labels is the fact that the powers that be don't know a darn more than half the time about what actually works in the field and what doesn't. Not to mention they charge you 2 arms and a leg for apibioxal OA. Guys like myself have known for several years that OA wasn't killing like the scientific community said it was but what are we supposed to do? Over pay for OA and go by their recommendations and let our bees die or weaken? My business doesn't have 5-20 years to figure problems out and neither do my bees. Mites problems in Tennessee aren't the same as mite problems in Canada or Florida. There is not a one size fits all for any mite treatment
 

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Thats right buy the expensive EPA label stuff and the reason it is only 96% pure is the 2 to 3% of coloidel silica added to make it flow easier in the package What the silica also will do in your vaporizer is also coat your surfaces of the bowl making it more inefficient and probably need to be cleaned more often and if silica gets into your lungs it will do more damage over time than the OA will.
 
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