Great catch George!

Makes sense to me! A word of caution, however. Note that the story says that they have identified a "suspect."

To me the suspect makes perfect sense, however. The mite as the vector for the virus explains a lot...

So we must continue to make war on Varroa with brass knuckles...

 

Note that the story says that they have identified a "suspect."

Yeah. I did say it was probably premature to be jumping to conclusions.

 

Nosema Ceranae is no secret. It was looked for from the beginning. I wrote about it. It was found in Fl. The virus is a different story. There was an unidentified virus found in Fl, perhaps this is it. On the other hand it may have been there a long time. I don't think anyone has ever looked this closely at bees before.

Dickm

 

Brass against varroa? I suspect that is a bad idea.

There were some reported cases of survival, thus success in some populations stacked against this tandem threat. You will never stop varroa and you will never beat a virus cold, the science is not capable of virus erradication yet. Therefore what you will produce is weak colonies ever more needing greater interventions and you commercial fellows will wind up sleeping in the beeyards year round with electronic monitors to alert you to the next round of crud to spray, dump or shake on your bees.

I suggest the search for success instead of the reliance on prevention of failure. Aiming higher you will hit higher. We need to begin at the beginning and increase the genetic base of North American bees, we have the science to prevent calamady here, the places in US territories to keep a heritage system of genetics in place and the people needed to select bees that can survive out of the Euro-Asiatic Apis m. breeds to develop bees that can give you a living and survive what is ahead in the ways of disease. The more norrow this nations genetic stock gets, the more likely we are to facing a silent spring in beekeeping.

Change the import laws, establish review protocals for the imports, palces to test those imports on our island fringes from Alaska to the Christmas Islands and lets get bees that will handle life without tube feeding tha darn things!

Chrissy Shaw

 

. Brass against Varroa? I suspect that is a bad idea

Chrissy Shaw

The reference to Brass Knuckles was a nod to a series of articles in ABJ that Randy Oliver wrote. In the series he basically argues that we should not lookfor a silver bullet, but instead take a brass knuckles approach. By that he meant, and goes on to describe, using an integrated Pest Management (IPM) approach, with SBB, oxalic acid, drone trapping, and monitoring.

 

The subject may not be new, but confirmed findings in Ca. is.This strain of nosema is really a bad one from the research I can find. The first thing that jumped out at me from the preliminary CCD report was none had fed fumidil. Tracheal mites, nosema and varroa (the triple whammy!) are more than a hive can take. Control them, and the viruses associated with them will stay at sublethal levels.

 

I fed fumidol in Oct. Treated with powedered sugar in the spring and early summer and OA in the late fall. I also used menthol grease patties both spring and fall. I lost 80 percent of my hives between Dec. 24 an Jan 29. Most of my losses had queens present with too few bees to suport them, more than adequate stores, no dead bees in or around the hives, and the weakened or dead hives were not being robbed in spite of the warm Jan. which allowed the remaining bees to fly. My number of hives is too small a sampling to mean anything in the big picture, but I see this as significant. I did have one hive with deformed wing virus which triggered the OA treatment but no other indications of PMS. I feel that I did control varroa and tracheal mites as well as they could be controled. The treatment for nosema was less effective in that the hives which collapsed did not take up the medicated syrup as well as the survivor hives. Perhaps the fumidol treatment was just too late and the effected hives were already failing to feed themselves. I did not do varroa counts in December because the hives were very strong and the weather was cold enough that I didn't want to disturb them any more than to pop the covers and look at the number of frames covered in the top supers, peek between the supers, test the weight of the different boxes, and to fill the feeders with fumidol in syrup. Out of 45 total hives I only saw one hive with evidence of fecal material on the landing board. In Dec. the average strength of my hives was about fifteen to eighteen frames covered with bees on a fifty degree day. The strongest were about 25 frames and these are the ones that survived. The weakest were about ten frames.

I'm just writing this to point out that when the statistics are compiled, one large operation with a given set of management practices dwarfs the data from smaller operations that have more time available to spend with their bees therefore what shows up in the smaller operations becomes invisable. I'm not saying that management practices are not a factor. What I believe is that they are not the only factor and there are many more variables that we may be missing. I hope we can find a simple answere for CCD, but in this modern world simple answers are more and more frequently the wrong answeres.

 

We need to begin at the beginning and increase the genetic base of North American bees, we have the science to prevent calamady here, the places in US territories to keep a heritage system of genetics in place and the people needed to select bees that can survive out of the Euro-Asiatic Apis m. breeds to develop bees that can give you a living and survive what is ahead in the ways of disease. -CSShaw

While increasing genetic diversity is a worthy goal, I foresee problems with importing still more honey bees. Seems to me that many of our current problems (tracheal mites, Varroa mites, Nosema ceranae, etc.) have come in with "imported" bees, and importing bees means that we'll tend to bring in whatever they carry with them.

Ever worry about Tropilaelaps clarae?

 

The Big Questions???

Okay, let me open with Lao Tzu: "The more rules and regulations...the more theives and robbers." Where do you suppose that nosema came from? It's here and it was not just one year ago. Mites? With swimming trunks, these mites? Bees are being smuggled into the US. Is this really news to anyone? Those diseases are bee, comb, feces, mite born perhaps and here then is apis nosema c., it did not get a passport, it was brought in and i doubt it was from Mexico or Canada, save as perhaps an travel route.

Someone, or ones, think they need to do this. I seriously doubt it was done with egg or drone semen. Someone with a queen or two, sprayed with water to keep quiet, probably danced right into North America, perhpas flew in on their own plane, or what have you. So, because we stand on a law made in 1922, and because of a list of things that we beekeepers allowed to happen, there exists now a market for such breeds and there is no way to legally fill that market, thus there is a black market that i assure you will expand as needed because we in the US blame everything on the African bee and want to huddle with inbreed Italian lines and a few Russian and Carniolan lines.

I don't want illegal bees, probably none reading these posts do, but that is the hole disease, and perhaps the mites, actually came through. Enforcement only works if you can find the people doing it. I might remind you, the list of pathogens is nowhere near at an end and so long as there is reason for a black market in bees, there will be those who will fill it.

I say again, these problems are based in strain weaknesses and the final living with these problems will come down to a genetic solution, provided we have a legal reseve of such genetics to fight these problems from.

Chrissy Shaw

 

Ms. Shaw, I really like what you say. But I think it's impossible to open the borders to imported bees. How about importing sperm? That could bee done. In fact buckbee might bee able to mail us some.

Whaddya think?

Hawk

 

What my ultimate hope is...

That we can gather, research, USDA, commercial beekeepers, honey industry (domestic) sideliners and hobbiests and undertake a project stretching from the Christmas Islands, one isolated Hawaiian Island, two Islands in the Alaskas coast and bring in the eggs and semen needed to keep the following lines as genetically diverse pools (as one would hertiage seeds) of Caucasian, Northern Italian, Carniolan, All Black lines from Spain to Scandinavia to the Russian Steppes and GB, the entire spectrum of these and the Anatolian bees. That within each breed a viable genetic base be maintained so that each race can survive as a race with full genetic potentials represented. From this Heritage European Breed stock research, breeding stock and resistance backups could be kept in a true, ongoing fashion.

The breeds for a particular area could be used one a commercial basis by local people in return for training in stock retention.

Chrissy Shaw

 

buckbee sezs:

Totally agree. And you have to persuade those guys who breed queens by the thousand for the big commercial keepers.

tecumseh replies:
it is my understanding that at least some of the comercial breeders are doing just that.... how else would the folks down the road offer a line of queens that they call buckfast?

I have heard very recently that uc davis has isolated a bacteria in water that they suspect as a culprit .... no link yet.

 

buckbee sezs:

Totally agree. And you have to persuade those guys who breed queens by the thousand for the big commercial keepers.

tecumseh replies:
it is my understanding that at least some of the comercial breeders are doing just that.... how else would the folks down the road offer a line of queens that they call buckfast?

What I was hinting at - rather clumsily - was that the large-scale queen and bee breeders over there have a special responsibility in all this because their products ARE the genetic pool from which most of the bees in the USA are derived. So if they are breeding 'sick' bees, then that is what you have. By 'sick', I mean susceptible - in whatever way that works - to certain diseases and disorders, or with certain genetic weaknesses that cause them to become susceptible - you get my drift, I hope.

We have some commercial beekeeping in the UK, of course, but nothing like on the scale of the USA and, as far as I know, no one source of queens is dominant.

 

I believe (correct me, someone, if I'm wrong) that most of the large-scale queen and package production is simply that: production. "Breeding" doesn't seem to be deliberate or necessarily all that selective among the large-scale outfits.

That's not saying that it should be the way it is, simply that that is the way it is.

I'm not sure that it makes a tremendous amount of difference. After all, Europe (theoretically) has greater "diversity" in honey bees, yet European bee keepers seem to be facing roughly the same problems we do here.

 

As fror price

I would be willing as a breeder and sideliner to pay a $10 a colony subscription, to be part of such a program. As for the Euro bees, yes, they have just came through the neck and therefore, regarding this current problem, they have survivor stock in all lines. The aussie and NZ bees are mostly Italian and we need to keep bees for the north. As for Alaska, where else but the norther Islands, with the cool marine climate and short winter days can one keep the northern most lines from Siberia and norther China.

Chrissy Shaw

As a solid unit, beekeepers need to move towards a sustainable future, allow a bee Heritage genetic bank. We can, and we should. CS

 

The 3 day thing

None of what I have read explains the strange behavior of robbers that has been reported. The cure can only be found once this is understood.

 

I spoke about that with a very wise neighbor beekeeper today...

There are still folds in the sheet, i agree, but a quick study of Spain and this new nosema is still worthy of a heritage bee genetics bank for the North Americas for known genetic weaknesses to be addressed.

If the root goes back to oil (Petro-Chemical) on some of this money can buy a lot of silence, but it cannot buy much gas.

The nosema, mite resistance, furthering of AFB resistance, we need the BROAD base of genetic potentials to have more than a couple wrenches against these troubles. It is called layered defense and no oil is needed.

How did CCD effect the feral African problem? Are pest control employees no soley working on fire ants due to lack of bee from the collapse anywhere it overlaped with the feral African population? I bet NO ONE has checked...

Chrissy Shaw

 

Its true that one can manage their bees to take into account all known problems and still get struck by lightning .I don't want to judge others management practices, but when I lose hives its usually my fault for doing too little too late.
These were the same symptoms we saw when we first got slammed by tracheal mites when they first showed up.Tiny clusters with a queen in Jan. and tons of feed not being robbed out .We still see this from time to time and I just assume Tmites, especially if I wasn't aggressive about treating them.
We winter in the valley where the bees fly more frequently than in the mountains.So hives with nosema and Tmites tend to just dwindle down rather than stay inside and dysentery. The thing about CCD that makes me curious is the SUDDEN disappearance of bees (leaving brood) rather than a slow dwindling.I wonder if this was healthy brood or sick.The other strange thing (heard from others too) was they wouldn't take feed.
This new nosema has the potential to wipe out hives very quickly from the research I read, so since it is in Ca. it has to be a suspect.I feed fumidil routinely so may have escaped it for this reason.
I suspect that there will be no one cause for the high losses this winter.There will be clusters of beekeeps where a certain insecticide was used(like cotton in Ca) or drought in the Midwest.And new parasites in other areas.And then the usual suspects.......

 

The thing is

I understand that a commercial operation, even one that produces its own queens, would be hard pressed for labor costs and time, to take the road of breeding for resistance, especially in all areas. But, my background is in all three beekeeping areas. There is the feeling among people who are trying to make a living off of bees that hobbiest and sideliners simply do not understand the pressure. That is correct, unless they are also in small business that is so environmentally dependant as beekeeping, it is hard to translate the pressure.

That said, economic pressure is just that, and increasinlgy the middle class understand that type of pressure.

Now with that said, there are enough dedicated smaller operations, staffed by very experienced beekeepers, who do have both the time and increasingly, the will to aid in the search for bees that all a commercial guy would have to do is plug into an operation. At present it is costly, even for a hobby scale beekeeper to seak out the traits among diverse genetic pools and then take the years needed to reassemble lines of bees that can meet a commercial operations needs. I have worked next to a great many commercial beekeepers, gentlemen, you are no different in your sincerity in wanting to keep bees alive than are the one hive hobbiest, the costs are simply greater for you. We can all work towards solutions, aid each other for the future of beekeeping at large, but there needs to be a leveling and an understanding that you don't know more by colony count alone. I think in ten years we could increase your bottom line if no other area could be improved, but it will take team work and respect of each other, co-operation and just plain human decency on everyone's part.

Chrissy Shaw

 

As for the Euro bees, yes, they have just came through the neck and therefore, regarding this current problem, they have survivor stock in all lines. -CSShaw

Am I missing something here? Aren't the "survivors" that have come through a genetic bottleneck necessarily LESS diverse? I was always under the impression that "bottlenecks," by definition, eliminated all but a very narrow range of the genetics.

 

Showed up in my email as link...

This like showed up in my email this AM. Just wondering what the boards thoughts are....

http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/27552961.html


I realize no scientific evidence has been put forth on the cell phone thing, but this is an angle I had not considered.

Thanks
TheSurveyor

 

This like showed up in my email this AM. Just wondering what the boards thoughts are....
http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/27552961.html
I realize no scientific evidence has been put forth on the cell phone thing, but this is an angle I had not considered.
Thanks
TheSurveyor

Fear sells. Bring your Gold Card...



"To learn more about end times, THE LAST DAYS CALENDAR: Understanding God's Appointed Times is a "must" read. To learn more about the Appointed Feasts of Israel and their relationaship to the return of Christ or to order this book on line..."

 

I just posted that to show, that nobody knows what is going on, but everyone wants a piece of the action..

Merely an observation....

 

Kieck

Hi, the genetic base in Europe is far wider than the one in North America. Part of the reason is we did not bring all of Europes lines here. The second is that market forces affect what traits were bred for. I was speaking with a beekeeper the other day regarding how gentle bees are now. There really was a understanding that "meaner bees = more honey", during those years there was selection for production only, these days the pressure, since the African fears, are towards these more gentle bees. Over time such pressures for lighter colored bees, a non-trait called honey production, and other factors narrowed the genetic base at the level of the breeders. They wanted to stay in business.

Then came the mites and a another huge chunk of a shrinking cake was sliced away. While there yet remain pockets of survivors, there are in now way as diverse of European bee lines upon their home turf. In some cases a certain effort is underway to protect some of the Euro genetic base.

Chrissy Shaw

 

chrissy sezs:
Hi, the genetic base in Europe

tecumseh replies:
the genetics suggest that the european and euro asian bee migrated out of africa three times (at the end of an environmental bottle neck). of all the combinations of bee in europe and euro asia only a small number were brought to the americas for their perceived economic benefit. amongst this small selected group many did not prove out in regards to their expected economic advantage. these 'possibilites' were culled quite rapidly. literature from not that long ago suggest that a great many commercial and hobbist abandoned most 'other' genetic lines for the yellow itilians further reducing the diversity of the genetic pool.

I would suggest to you chrissy that the idea of selecting for gentleness (workability) was a consideration long before the african bee became an issue. however if you prioritized your wish list gentleness did spring to the top of the list when african's became a ongoing concern. I don't think the selection parameter were ever quite so narrow as you seemed to suggest.

 

So, here in the United States, we have Apis mellifera ligustica ("Italians"), A. m. carnica ("Carniolans"), A. m. caucasica ("Caucasians"), A. m. scutellata ("Africans"), A. m. mellifera ("Germans," although how many genes from these bees still exist in North America might be questionable), "Russians" (likely A. m. carnica), "Buckfast" (which, presumably, incorporate genes from various races throughout Eurasia and Africa), and A. m. lamarckii ("Egyptian"; genes show up in mtDNA tests from California).

While the actual number of imports of any one race may be limited in North America, the sheer number of races imported should provide a pretty broad base of genetics, right? What genetics does Europe have that have not been imported to North America?

 

kiech ask:
What genetics does Europe have that have not been imported to North America?

tecumseh replies:
well kiech of all those 'races' that you mentioned only a very small number (a small sample of the possible gene combinations within any given race) were actually exported into the us of a. so even from the get go the diversity of genes within that particular race was limited. there really was not a good way in the past to have overcome this bottle neck (as far as I can tell) and other imported species (dogs come to mind directly) have well known problems (genetic correlated diseases) that are a product of this lack of genetic diversity.

secondly in the bug world their are many more possible combinations (races or sub species) than most folks would ever imagine. I think one of the entomologist here told me there is something like 750 native species of social insects (bees) in texas alone.

finally, the diversity of the genetics within the offspring (purely bred) will not be any greater than the genetic diversity of the founders and any genetic disease or disposition that are part of the founders genetics will be passed along to the offspring (pure or not). most times the genetic limitations (diseases) will show themselves long before the genetic benefit can be fully realized (even when this benefit is fully known in advance).

 

kiech ask:
What genetics does Europe have that have not been imported to North America?

tecumseh replies:
well kiech of all those 'races' that you mentioned only a very small number (a small sample of the possible gene combinations within any given race) were actually exported into the us of a. so even from the get go the diversity of genes within that particular race was limited. there really was not a good way in the past to have overcome this bottle neck (as far as I can tell) and other imported species (dogs come to mind directly) have well known problems (genetic correlated diseases) that are a product of this lack of genetic diversity.

secondly in the bug world their are many more possible combinations (races or sub species) than most folks would ever imagine. I think one of the entomologist here told me there is something like 750 native species of social insects (bees) in texas alone.

In Europe, bees had literally millions of years to adapt to local conditions and develop sub-species and ecotypes perfectly adapted to particular environmental conditions. Even in a country as small as England, the climate varies significantly between the south coast and the north and there were undoubtedly several different ecotypes of the native Apis m. m. within those few hundred miles.

When commercial-scale beekeeping became possible, almost the first thing that happened was that virtually all those native bees were wiped out by 'Isle of Wight disease' and subsequently replaced by a mix of German, Dutch, French and Italian bees from quite different climates.

Because of the adaptability of the honeybee and the fact that they were 'nursed' by being artificially fed and medicated, this random genetic mix is what now comprises the British bee population. While beekeepers still insist on importing queens from whatever breeder is 'flavour of the month', bees will never return to a self-selected, stable state, properly adapted to local conditions.

In the USA, bees have only been around for 400 years and have never had the opportunity to truly adapt, due to the commercial pollinators shipping them across several states twice per year and confusing the heck out of them by forcing them to live in two quite different climates with different flora. Add to that the routine medication and 'factory farming' style of handling and you have a recipe for a disaster waiting to happen. Chuck into the mix a brew of synthetic chemicals that are routinely sprayed (even by some beekeepers, as admitted on this board) on your crops and genetically interfered-with pollen and are you in any way really surprised that something like CCD occurs?

The big surprise is that it took bees 150 years to say "enough is enough!"

 

CCD test on A.M.S

Any chance the bee labs could test some CCD colonies in their scutella apiaries? maybe this could be our secret defense for africanized bees?