Ain't this poor horse dead enough yet? You've been beating it soooo long that there can't be much of the carcass left.

Rusty
Rusty
Great, have at it. Personally, I think you put too much weight in trying to attain/find/raise the "right" bee. The experience of Dennis Murrell and myself has been that of using bee stock from a variety of sources.Since most people don't already have bees that can do that, part of the goal of the forum must be to direct them toward getting bees that can do that. That will mean identifying the differences between those that can thrive alone and those that can't; and working through the ways to have the former and not the latter.
Thanks Barry.Great, have at it.
If you and Dennis Murrell tried to find the wrong bee, and deliberate did the wrong things with it, would you expect the same results?Personally, I think you put too much weight in trying to attain/find/raise the "right" bee. The experience of Dennis Murrell and myself has been that of using bee stock from a variety of sources.
Neigh! That was just waking it up!Ain't this poor horse dead enough yet? You've been beating it soooo long that there can't be much of the carcass left.
Rusty
Say what?If you and Dennis Murrell tried to find the wrong bee, and deliberate did the wrong things with it, would you expect the same results?
Trolling hard still.....Neigh! That was just waking it up!
M
I'm trying to understand what you mean by "too much weight in trying to attain/find/raise the "right" bee."Say what?
Yes I have Adam. But they can all go into the pond, and any that swarm too soon/too often/don't respond to my asking nicely not to swarm (by giving them room) won't get much weight.Mike, have you considered that one of the adaptations that some "survivors" have incorporated is frequent swarming? Bees have adapted to Varroa by swarming, and benefit from the inherent broodbreak that swarming provides.
Just a mo: are we talking about mite-resistant breeders (like Weavers) or commercials who are working toward resistance, or commercials who simply medicate systematically?I don't have time to go find your quotes, but you have placed heavy emphasis on feral bees as the answer and have had negative things to say about commercial breeders.
Do you do anything else Barry? Do you not treat and select from most productive? (Selecting for resistance). Do you use small cell? Do you have a healthy local breeding pool (ferals, non treating/beekeepers)? Do you create artificial brood breaks - deliberately or accidentally?I have used commercial stock in my hives. It hasn't been an issue with me at least. I haven't gone out of my way to spend a lot of time breeding a resistant bee. They do it themselves.
Your 'greater fitness' is I reckon commensurate with the sticky's 'letting them cope with disease on their own'.Mike's assumption is the bees with greater fitness will be bees with most suitability to being kept for human honey production.
Yes. As I recently showed your 'hypothesis' leads directly to absurdities in the form of contradictions to well attested realities: http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ee-adequate-to-the-task&p=1074828#post1074828I know this sounds absurd --
I'm not theorising about such things. Its known that breeders can concentrate desirable traits, and that's what we're setting out to do.Mike is equating what is convenient for a British pensioner (easy collection of surplus honey), with what is adaptive for a species.
Sure. But the dominant factor governing successful reproduction is efficiency at energy-gathering and conversion (to offspring). (Including successful storage/defence). "Energy is the fundamental object under contention in natural selection". See primer: Energetics of Evolution - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Boltzmann#The_Boltzmann_equationColonies die all the time, it is the ones with the greatest reproduction that dominates a population.
No Weavers. My last purchase was from Johnny (Broke-T) 2-3 years ago. Swarms as well. Who knows which breeder those genetics came from?Just a mo: are we talking about mite-resistant breeders (like Weavers) or commercials who are working toward resistance, or commercials who simply medicate systematically?
I paint the inside of my woodenware!Do you do anything else Barry?
I'll bee splitting from my winter survivor and will buy a queen or two as well as let them raise their own.Do you not treat and select from most productive?
Yes.Do you use small cell?
Not that I know of.Do you have a healthy local breeding pool (ferals, non treating/beekeepers)?
No.Do you create artificial brood breaks - deliberately or accidentally?
If you're splitting regularly you're creating artificial brood breaks. Do your hives last 3 or 4 years without any splitting?I'll bee splitting from my winter survivor and will buy a queen or two as well as let them raise their own.
Some people swear by small cell, and it may very well be effective. But it isn't "letting them cope with disease on their own."(Small Cell)
Yes.
I haven't been at one place long enough to get any kind of longterm data. Life keeps getting in the way. Some have lasted that long.If you're splitting regularly you're creating artificial brood breaks. Do your hives last 3 or 4 years without any splitting?
If you are anti managing bees, why even keep them? Why not just frolic through the forest and cut out wild feral comb when you have a honey fix? BeeKEEPING has always entailed manipulation. After all, we're going to steal some of their honey! But even here, I'm a minimalist. I stay out of my hives as much as possible. I tend to do less than more. Life is busy and that's how it works for me. Years ago I spent a lot of time working/testing/studying bees.Some people swear by small cell, and it may very well be effective. But it isn't "letting them cope with disease on their own."
Right now I don't have a goal with bees. Between work and managing this forum/site, I'm fortunate to still have bees.I'd be interested to know more about your situation, including what you rate as success and how far you feel you are achieving it.
There are lots of different forms of 'managing'. Some contribute to a long term aim of raising resistance. Some don't. Some send it backwards.If you are anti managing bees, why even keep them?