Beesource Beekeeping Forums banner
41 - 60 of 75 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,220 Posts
If you can set your temperature to 220F then you will see the acid get wet from the molecular water being released and this water will boil off and you will be left with a dry lump of oxalic acid. You can then set up your temperature to around 300F then that lump will sublimate just like dry ice and that will be a gas vapor for a short while and it will not go far before ite temperature drops below about 280F and it will then condense into tiny crystal particles and this is the vapor you see coming out of a vaporizer at abot 300 To 400F. And that is why you see those tiny crystals all gathered onto the hait on amy arm. About 4 years ago when I was working on this system I noticed during the winter mornings that the cloud of vapor from the vaporizer being much warmer that the outside air would rise up quite highand you could see the sunlight twinkling on the millions of crystals in the sky and that is when I realised that the vapor was a particulate vapor and that fancy organic masks were not necessary, all that was required was a good fit with a good particulate mask, which cuts out a beard and mustache you can ask Adolf Hitler about that one.
 

·
Registered
Small Cell Nucs
Joined
·
549 Posts
Discussion Starter · #42 ·
If you can set your temperature to 220F then you will see the acid get wet from the molecular water being released and this water will boil off and you will be left with a dry lump of oxalic acid. You can then set up your temperature to around 300F then that lump will sublimate just like dry ice and that will be a gas vapor for a short while and it will not go far before ite temperature drops below about 280F and it will then condense into tiny crystal particles and this is the vapor you see coming out of a vaporizer at abot 300 To 400F. And that is why you see those tiny crystals all gathered onto the hait on amy arm. About 4 years ago when I was working on this system I noticed during the winter mornings that the cloud of vapor from the vaporizer being much warmer that the outside air would rise up quite highand you could see the sunlight twinkling on the millions of crystals in the sky and that is when I realised that the vapor was a particulate vapor and that fancy organic masks were not necessary, all that was required was a good fit with a good particulate mask, which cuts out a beard and mustache you can ask Adolf Hitler about that one.
Yes my beard has caused some issues for sure. :) There is no mask of any type that works for me. So i'm thinking another inventive individual should get a snorkel mouthpiece type of deal, put a filter on the end of it so I can buy one. LOL.
 

·
Registered
Small Cell Nucs
Joined
·
549 Posts
Discussion Starter · #43 ·
If you can set your temperature to 220F then you will see the acid get wet from the molecular water being released and this water will boil off and you will be left with a dry lump of oxalic acid. You can then set up your temperature to around 300F then that lump will sublimate just like dry ice and that will be a gas vapor for a short while and it will not go far before ite temperature drops below about 280F and it will then condense into tiny crystal particles and this is the vapor you see coming out of a vaporizer at abot 300 To 400F. And that is why you see those tiny crystals all gathered onto the hait on amy arm. About 4 years ago when I was working on this system I noticed during the winter mornings that the cloud of vapor from the vaporizer being much warmer that the outside air would rise up quite highand you could see the sunlight twinkling on the millions of crystals in the sky and that is when I realised that the vapor was a particulate vapor and that fancy organic masks were not necessary, all that was required was a good fit with a good particulate mask, which cuts out a beard and mustache you can ask Adolf Hitler about that one.
I totally agree with you on the changing states in that slow fashion. But when we put OA into a chamber that is over 330 F. The changing of state happens much too rapidly for it to sublimate. And it will literally go through the all 3 phases of state that all the other substances go through too. So the cooling it has from the point of vaporization to the outlet of the device causes it to recrystallize. And that is one of the issues I am addressing with the OCV. Minimal liquid coming out of the device. No plugging up, 3/8' stainless steel outlet tube. Almost impossible to bend.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,220 Posts
Fivejay, on the winter mornings when I was doing tests the temperature was maybe less than 10C or 50 F so the vapor out of the vaporizer was much warmer and the cloud went up quite high so that you could see through the cloud into the early morning sun. oxalic acid cannot exist as a gas at these temperatures or even above a 100F or 38C amd it could never sparkle in the sunlight like those little crystals did. We cannot change the laws of physics.Hot air rises.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,374 Posts
You know more than me about the properties of oa, sublimation, gas,for sure. I barely got by in hs chemistry. Just common sense to me that it looks like a gas/ vapor as it leaks out of a hive and we know it crystalizes when it cools. I can smell it in vapor form too, so I will stick with my respirator. J
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
463 Posts
This thread reminded me of a photo I had seen a while back. They used hollow blackgum logs for the hives.





 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,220 Posts
You know more than me about the properties of oa, sublimation, gas,for sure. I barely got by in hs chemistry. Just common sense to me that it looks like a gas/ vapor as it leaks out of a hive and we know it crystalizes when it cools. I can smell it in vapor form too, so I will stick with my respirator. J
When I was doing these tests there was also the theory about the OA vapor breaking down to formic and other stuff, so when I saw that the OA vapor was particulate and not a gas I would make a plume from the vaporizer and walk into it with an N95 paper mask and try to see if I could smell any formic acid. I there was much formic there you will smell it for sure, but there was no formic smell there and no OA smell either. Seeing that the N95 mask was much more comfortable to wear than the respirator I have used the n95 when I felt the need of a respirator. By the way I sometimes get these big ants hanging around my bee feeders, If you grab one and squash it between your fingers you can get a smell of formic.
 

·
Registered
Small Cell Nucs
Joined
·
549 Posts
Discussion Starter · #52 ·
What are the benefits to allowing the OA to recrystallize inside the device ? And are there times that acid will pool up where you insert the tool? Or dripping out of the tip?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,220 Posts
Benefits have nothing to do with this, once the oxalic acid gas cools down below 280F it will go back to a solid but in tiny crystal form. The air directly around the nozzle will be no more than 100F so there is no option. The liquid you see is from condensing steam from the water that is boiled off from the OA. If this is a problem you can always increase the temperature on the controller to keep the nozzle at a higher temperature. You get so much vapor filling the hive that any water and acid that drips from the tip of the vaporizer is of little consequence.
 

·
Registered
Small Cell Nucs
Joined
·
549 Posts
Discussion Starter · #54 ·
Benefits have nothing to do with this, once the oxalic acid gas cools down below 280F it will go back to a solid but in tiny crystal form. The air directly around the nozzle will be no more than 100F so there is no option. The liquid you see is from condensing steam from the water that is boiled off from the OA. If this is a problem you can always increase the temperature on the controller to keep the nozzle at a higher temperature. You get so much vapor filling the hive that any water and acid that drips from the tip of the vaporizer is of little consequence.
The units plug up, they spit liquid, they pop caps. There are puddles of acid which offsets the weight that was measured into the device. The fog seen is not just a vapor. It is saturated. Or the equivelent of wet steam. Sure it can be used to run through a radiator, but you sure can't run it through a turbine or a piston. Water hammer is the equivelent to that.
Same thing in a hive, the crystals are much, much larger while in the saturated or wet steam state. If the acid never gets past it's saturation temperature. It's spraying liquid.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,220 Posts
Did you take a good look at all that wet steam and wet acid on my arm, talk is cheap it is the ammount of vapor in the hive that counts.and believe me I have treated with a plexi cover on top of hives to see the coverage of vapor, and because of these tests it brought me to treat from higher in the hive if possible.
 

·
Registered
Small Cell Nucs
Joined
·
549 Posts
Discussion Starter · #56 ·
Did you take a good look at all that wet steam and wet acid on my arm, talk is cheap it is the ammount of vapor in the hive that counts.and believe me I have treated with a plexi cover on top of hives to see the coverage of vapor, and because of these tests it brought me to treat from higher in the hive if possible.
Can't deny the problems all the other vaporizers have had. The OCV is the only vaporizer addressing them all.
 

·
Registered
Small Cell Nucs
Joined
·
549 Posts
Discussion Starter · #58 ·
Did you take a good look at all that wet steam and wet acid on my arm, talk is cheap it is the ammount of vapor in the hive that counts.and believe me I have treated with a plexi cover on top of hives to see the coverage of vapor, and because of these tests it brought me to treat from higher in the hive if possible.
The handle of the OCV doesn't even need insulated. With a torch blowing on a piece of copper right above it. No insulation needed between the capsule and the handle.
 

·
Registered
Small Cell Nucs
Joined
·
549 Posts
Discussion Starter · #60 ·
You are obviously speaking for yourself for something which has not passed the test of time.
You are obviously speaking for yourself for something which has not passed the test of time.
I agree on the test of time. Thats why i have done mite drops. And continuing them. And who else do you see doing mite drops then getting magnified closeups of the mites. No denying the OCV kills mites.
 
41 - 60 of 75 Posts
Top