Can CCD be reduced by using natural comb?

2194 Views 12 Replies 8 Participants Last post by Batman, Mar 3, 2010

Beegreen

Discussion Starter · Mar 2, 2010

I'm curious if there has ever been a study to see if allowing bees to build there own comb will reduce CCD versus using foundation or old comb? I know there are many ideas as to what is causing CCD but it seems like, from what I have heard and read, a lot of beekeepers whom's bee colonies are just disappearing are using old comb which is built on foundation. I have never read about a beekeeper whom is allowing the bees to build their own comb talk about losing bees from CCD. All the natural comb studies that I have read focus on reduced mite counts and a few other things. I wonder if all the chemicals we have been using are building up in the "old comb" which is the major reason for CCD? I would like to hear what people have to say on this whom are allowing the bees to build there own comb versus using foundation or old comb. Thanks in advance for your ideas.

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Roland

· #2 · Mar 2, 2010

I am reasonably certain that the kind of comb you run has no correlation to whether or not you get CCD. I am reasonably certain that the beekeeping style is directly correlated to your chances of getting CCD. Migratory beekeeping greatly increases the bees exposure to everything. However, since most migratory beekeepers do not use natural comb, and more small isolated beekeepers do use natural comb, it would be easy to draw am incorrect correlation. I am also reasonably certain that once you get CCD, no matter what your comb is, the best solution is to start over with new equipment and new clean bees.

Roland

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suttonbeeman

· #3 · Mar 2, 2010

ANd If you havent had it STAY AWAY FROM Apistan and cuophous, but more important stay from any systemic insecticides (neonictinoids)!!!!!!

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Kieck

· #4 · Mar 2, 2010

You guys seem to have a lot more information on the causes (and maybe determination) of CCD than some of the rest of us.

If asked to verify that dead hives were the result of CCD, what would you look for? If you had to sign your name to such a verification, what would convince you that dead hives were caused by CCD?

And how could you begin to predict where CCD would strike next to put test hives with and without foundationless comb? What sort of indicators would suggest a probability of CCD?

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AmericasBeekeeper

· #5 · Mar 2, 2010

If you have brood and honey but little to no workers, you have CCD. If all your other hives and the other creatures are smart enough not to rob the diseased hive you have CCD.
The other factor unmentioned with natural comb, is it is not as old as foundation comb. Old comb is a chemical sponge as mentioned previously and by Jerry Hayes in his "classroom" and presentations. Natural comb beekeepers, hopefully stay away from the chemicals inside the hive too as possible, that is the definition of natural beekeeping.

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sqkcrk

· #6 · Mar 2, 2010

So, if I have it corrct, it's not the kind of foundation or lack of foundation, it's the age of the comb and what it has been exposed to. Right?

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Kieck

· #7 · Mar 2, 2010

If the cause of CCD is as simple as it's made to sound in this thread, why don't all beekeepers know about it?

And why are hives still being lost to CCD?

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D Coates

· #8 · Mar 2, 2010

As soon as someone figures out what's causing CCD or what it is then we can work on a cure. The problem is no one knows for certain what it is and or what triggers it. The numbers of hive losses are dropping quickly but those neonictinoids are being used as much as they ever were. If it was that combined with the wax sponge theory wouldn't it be increasing even more?

If you look at "Spring Dwindling" and other names of what appears to be the same thing, it shows up every 15 to 25 years (before neonictinoids). The earliest it's mentioned is in the mid 1800's? No one fugures out what causes it but it seems to go away on it's own. Bottom line, no one truely knows what's causing it so reducing or curing it is a bit premature.

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Roland

· #9 · Mar 2, 2010

Sqrcrk - True, I have seen some very black comb taken from a known "beetree" that is attached to a window as an observation hive. It had that "smell" associated with CCD. I do not care where the comb came from, but care greatly about what has contaminated it in the past.

Kieck - Why do most beekeepers not know about CCD? Possibly because they think they know about something they have not experienced yet? Ther are many things out there that kill bees, but do not fullfill all of the criteria to be labeled as CCD.

Amersica'sbeekeeper - not to pick on you, but I believe there are other symptoms that must also be present.

D Coates - No offence - I do not need to know the cause of CCD, if I already know the cure. An order of magnitude change in honey production is irrefutable. You can search for the cause, I have other things to do.

Roland

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Kieck

· #10 · Mar 3, 2010

Sorry, I meant so many beekeepers not knowing about the cause of CCD, not just not knowing about CCD. I think most beekeepers (if not all) have at least heard of CCD.

If old comb is simply the cause, it should be easy to figure out. Bees that are on very old comb will succumb to CCD. Bees that are on new comb will not. And "giving" bees CCD would be very easy -- just give them some old comb.

From what I've read, experiments haven't shown any evidence that CCD is simply caused by old comb.

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Roland

· #11 · Mar 3, 2010

Kieck - the age, cell size, color, etc. is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether or not the hive has had CCD. Brand new comb, from foundation or "natural" is not new, once a bee has touched it. That is my opinion.

One of the problems is that there are many other things that kill bees, that have been called CCD, that are clouding the issues. People that have bees that die, and show only some of the criteria, claim to have had CCD, and then discuss their knowledge on the subject. When you experience it, it is beyond comprehension that it can exist.

Again , i could be wrong, but we have not had to many "surprises" lately.

Roland

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D Coates

· #12 · Mar 3, 2010 (Edited)

Roland said:
D Coates - No offence - I do not need to know the cause of CCD, if I already know the cure. An order of magnitude change in honey production is irrefutable. You can search for the cause, I have other things to do. Roland

I find that when one starts a response with "no offense" they know what they are saying will come across as crass. They choose not change the verbage to send exactly that message.

How do you know the cure if you don't know what's causing it? What's causing it is unknown. I've had no symptoms to this point, so I could say that I have the cure? By your reasoning, yes...

"An order of magnitude change in honey production is irrefutable." Says whom? If it's so simple and irrefutiably known why isn't everyone in agreement?

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Batman

· #13 · Mar 3, 2010

D Coates said:
I find that when one starts a response with "no offense" they know what they are saying will come across as crass. They choose not change the verbage to send exactly that message.

How do you know the cure if you don't know what's causing it? What's causing it is unknown. I've had no symptoms to this point, so I could say that I have the cure? By your reasoning, yes...

"An order of magnitude change in honey production is irrefutable." Says whom? If it's so simple and irrefutiably know why isn't everyone in agreement?

I agree with you D. If you have to give a disclaimer before you say something.... Another thing that he was clear to point out, he doesn't care, as long as someone else figures it out and he can benefit from it.

Craig

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