[drummerboy]

The scattered clusters of bees implies a cold snap 'may' have prevented bees from clustering properly.

Great idea to Pull some frames and have a look. Please share. Check for any capped or open brood at all and its location compared with cluster (s). Worker or drone comb?

Check on possible over abundance of drone brood comb which can often indicate queen failure. Check bottom board for mites 'on' dead bees.

REMEMBER: Bees die, it's normal. Sad but normal.

 

[TimBob83]

Ok here's a few pictures.

The first half is of the bottom box, second half (started after the picture of me holding the queen cupish thing) is of the upper. Looks like I'll have to make a second post with the rest of the pictures

General observations:
1: Tons of bees on bottom board. To be blunt I didn't look for mites on the board itself. There were just tons of bees. Some of the ones on the bottom were stuck to the bottom board and a bit moldy (older dead bees?) but there were plenty of fresh bodies. I picked up plenty of bees to look for mites and opened some brood cells and didn't find any.
2: There were plenty of young furry bees. Nobody appears deformed or unusually small.
3: The bees seemed spread out, no definitive cluster I could find and appeared to be going about their lives, eating some honey when suddenly they just froze in place (see pictures)
4: Bottom box was chock full of honey. All the frames looked essentially the same. Some capped honey, plenty of open.
5: There were 3 frames in the middle of the top box that had been used for brood but had very spotty patterns. In fact the frames where the brood sphere should have been were mostly empty save for some unhatched brood. I found one single larva and the capped cells that are in the pictures.
6: I had a hard time finding eggs and when I did...there were frequently 2 or 3 in each cell, haphazardly plopped in there.
7: The quilt box shaving were damp (not soaked/wet) and the hive seemed to have a fair amount of condensation which seemed confined mostly to the bottom box.
8: That queen cupish thing is solid wax/propolis.

Queen died? laying workers? no queen to make the bees cluster and so they spread out and froze in a cold snap?

Thanks again everyone!

Tim

 

[TimBob83]

rest of the pictures.

the knife is pointing to the cells with multiple eggs. Aside from this small area there are no eggs in the hive.

 

[RayMarler]

Looks Like a lot of mite frass in the old brood cells to me, but sometimes I can't tell so sure from pics. Mites, possible failing queen, and cold snap. No bees in center because the cluster froze and the fell to the bottom board.

 

[TimBob83]

Thanks Ray!

 

[Adam Foster Collins]

Agreed. Mites. The picked-open cappings; a large broodnest at the end of the season. Went into winter strong and died because the large colony carried too high a mite load. Viruses took their toll and they collapsed. The story of the beekeeper's life these days.

Adam

 

[drummerboy]

I can agree w/ Adam Foster Collins to a point. However, Multiple eggs in some cells, and some frames full of drone comb indicate some form of queen failure.

Without actually looking at a bunch of individual bees we can't know definitively whether it was mites or a combination of factors (including weather), but I'm sticking with queen failure as the most likely scenario. Multiple eggs in the cells indicate it happened some time ago imho.

 

[wildbranch2007]

However, Multiple eggs in some cells, and some frames full of drone comb indicate some form of queen failure.
Multiple eggs in the cells indicate it happened some time ago imho.

I've seen often enough that when the cluster declines rapidly due to mites or what ever the queen starts laying multiple eggs per cell, now it would depend on where the eggs were in the cells but can't see into the pictures. I had to go back and re-read, didn't see anywhere he said full frames of drone brood?

 

[drummerboy]

I've seen often enough that when the cluster declines rapidly due to mites or what ever the queen starts laying multiple eggs per cell, now it would depend on where the eggs were in the cells but can't see into the pictures. I had to go back and re-read, didn't see anywhere he said full frames of drone brood?

At least 2 of the shown frames appear to be mostly drone comb.....But maybe my eyes are failing me....?

 

[MJC417]

Tim, The brood frames look like classic parasitic mite syndrome. Monthly mite checks and checks before and after treatments will get your colonies through winter.
Why did my Honey Bees Die?, Meghan Milbrath, PhD Michigan State | NY Bee Wellness Workshops

 

[drummerboy]

This topic reflects the old adage that two (or many more) truths can exist at the same time.

Truth; When in doubt we've grown accustomed to blaming the mites for colony death....they're the easiest target and don't talk back, unless a complete inspection is conducted.

Truth; Most colony deaths are 'still' caused by poor beekeeping (always been so), followed by purchasing weak/sick bees, especially queens.....unless you're rearing you own in your own yard.

Truth; Colonies still die despite monthly mite checks and the treatments currently designed to kill (or is it strengthen?) mites.

Truth; Keeping bees 'alive' has become more difficult despite treatments.

Truth; Some have been stating this quote below for years already to no avail.

"There are growing signs that chemical treatments are only delaying the honeybees natural ability to control their own environment and thus threaten their future survival as stronger treatments are developed and applied"

We've been going down this road for a very long time leaving destruction of ecosystems and the deaths of millions of species in our wake. What have we learned?

Sorry if this went 'off topic' - but my excuse is that it was zeroF this am and we still have 2 plus feet of snow with more coming.

Latest reports say its our snowiest winter since 1968....ah the good ol days ...

That said...our 4 colonies are still alive with at least another month before pollen or nectar are available. 🐝

 

[Gray Goose]

Sorry if this went 'off topic' - but my excuse is that it was zeroF this am and we still have 2 plus feet of snow with more coming.

ya I am pacing and going nutty myself.
hopefully cured with 60 degree weather.

agree with Most of your post

we had chickens,, a few per 100 would just be dead one morning.
My neighbor to my farm had sheep.
there are a fair number of bones and young onthe stone pile every year.

AG is not a 100% game any where.

GG

 

[grozzie2]

Ok here's a few pictures.

The photo of the bottom board has a lot of sugar on top of the dead bees, so those bees were dead before the sugar fell down on top of them. The shots of brood all have all the classic look of PMS. Some of the frames are full of white specs, which look like sugar granules. Where there is brood, I see perforated and sunken cappings, and not a trace of honey or other food for the bees in those areas. the bottom board shot suggests the colony started out with a decent size population, lots of dead bees there.

There is no feed anywhere near where the brood bits are.

My guess as to what happened, adding all this up. Decent size cluster, compromised winter bees. The cluster was sitting over a brood patch, in contact with feed initially. When it got cold, bees started dieing off faster than typical, cluster shrank, lost contact with the feed , then one by one the compromised bees died off. Not a typical case of 'starve beside food' as I see no butts sticking out of the combs. IMG_6939 is a bit bothersome, to me that doesn't look like a good pollen frame, it looks like a frame full of pollen mummies which are no use to the bees. The frames with honey are also bothersome, there is no sign of the bees having moved the cluster over to those areas with feed.

This is a case that I describe to folks as 'The bees were unhealthy in the fall, colony already dead, just didn't know it yet', and after the winter arrived, they found out. It's very typical around our area that we have a warm spell in December or January, folks see lots of bees flying, lots of yellow spots in the snow. Then in late January of February we get a cold snap with a decent dump of snow, and when it warms up again, colonies look just like this one.

 

[TimBob83]

Well I really appreciate all the input.

Lots of information to comb through and digest.

It's frustrating and somewhat embarrassing for it to have been mites. But sometimes the truth stings.

They were there. Too many of them. Given the harsh winters here, I have very little room for being lazy about mites. Perhaps that's true everywhere but my thought is that weak bees might make it through an easy winter, but they are much less likely to make it through a harsh one. Winter bees need all the strength they can get. Lesson learned.

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to go through this stuff with me. I was more disciplined about it in the past but this season got a bit lazy. I think I'm surprised at how badly the mites were able to damage the colony when I felt I was only a "little" lazy and not outright negligent. I guess they only need a small opening to wreck everything.

Thanks again.

And Drummerboy...yeah, we've got feet of snow still on the ground, today's wind chill is in the single digits. Last year the grass was showing on this date!

 

[Gray Goose]

They were there. Too many of them. Given the harsh winters here, I have very little room for being lazy about mites. Perhaps that's true everywhere but my thought is that weak bees might make it through an easy winter, but they are much less likely to make it through a harsh one. Winter bees need all the strength they can get. Lesson learned.

TimBob
unfortunately one of the Virus Vectored by Mites affect the wing Muscles.
Bees to generate heat decouple the wing and use the wing Muscles to essecually shiver.
this Virus 1 of about 17 prevent this from happening, bees then cannot stay warm as they cannot shiver properly.
so for folks in cold areas it is a bit of a double wammy, cold and the inability to stay warm.

If you can find the time, read part 1 and 2 of this article, it can add in more detail than I can.

Old Bees/ Cold Bees/ No Bees? Part 1 - Scientific Beekeeping

The Disease that Disappears. 1 The Disappearing Act 2 Colony Population Dynamics and Collapse. 3 Dwindling—What a difference a few days make! 5 Foragers have a short warranty. 7 Protein levels. 9 General infections. 9 Parasites. 10 Viruses. 10 Hot-Blooded Ladies. 12 The Bottom Line. 15...

scientificbeekeeping.com

Old Bees/ Cold bees/ No bees? Part 2 - Scientific Beekeeping

Old Bees/ Cold Bees/ No Bees? Part 2 © Randy Oliver ScientificBeekeeping.com First Published in ABJ in July 2008 One day during his tenure as a professor, Albert Einstein was visited by a student. “The questions on this year’s exam are the same as last year’s!” the young man exclaimed. “Yes,”...

scientificbeekeeping.com

GG

 

[RayMarler]

Bees dieing with heads in cells were not there trying to slurp up the last remaining honey. They were there trying to heat the combs, the contents of the combs, and the cluster. Head first in cells is NOT a sign of starvation.

 

[crofter]

Bees dieing with heads in cells were not there trying to slurp up the last remaining honey. They were there trying to heat the combs, the contents of the combs, and the cluster. Head first in cells is NOT a sign of starvation.

Heater bees go into cells so they can more efficiently transfer their body heat to the comb and also they take up only a third of the living space that way. Makes for a more compact cluster.

 

[Gray Goose]

Bees dieing with heads in cells were not there trying to slurp up the last remaining honey. They were there trying to heat the combs, the contents of the combs, and the cluster. Head first in cells is NOT a sign of starvation.

Well
I am going to "partially" disagree.
If there is brood and the brood is surrounded by "heater bees, and they run out of food, you may just find them dead that way. The bees do not pull out to go look for food, they are heating, and often die right there.

I'll try to get a pic today, I had a couple go out that way in late feb.

GG

 

[grozzie2]

Bees dieing with heads in cells were not there trying to slurp up the last remaining honey. They were there trying to heat the combs, the contents of the combs, and the cluster. Head first in cells is NOT a sign of starvation.

Normally a bunch of bees with butts sticking out of combs, some distance from any stores is a sign of a cluster out of contact with the feed. the bees kept in cluster to try keep what brood they have incubated, and starved in the process. And that's a common reason for finding a deadout with a chunk of bees with butts sticking out of the combs, then a short distance away, a band of untouched honey.

 

[RayMarler]

Well, the way I see it is...
Heater bees heat the cluster, the cluster bees go find food stores. If the cluster is too small then not enough bees to go for food, especially if they have brood to cover. If the cluster is too small, they can't or won't move the cluster up into food storage areas. What makes the cluster of bees to small to go look for food or move up into food stores? Maybe mites and the associated virus infections. Maybe lack of fall foraging causing lack of vitellogenin fat winter bees. Maybe queen failure. Maybe for other reasons.
But maybe I don't see it fully or correctly. My mind does play tricks on me at my age, more times than I like.

P.S.
In this particular case, I still lean towards Mite and related Virus causing sick bees that could not cluster and/or move to food to stay warm enough, then froze in the latest cold spell and then dropped off the combs as they warmed up. It makes the most sense to me from what's been said and the pictures posted.