[TimBob83]

So over the last ~2 weeks I've noticed a lot less dead bees in the snow in front of one of my hives. Started getting suspicious. Stuck my ear on both hives and heard buzzing in one but not the other. Grabbed the stethoscope and still couldn't hear anything in one hive. Gave it a tap, nothing.

Cracked the top, no bees staring at me (they'd been all over the mountain camp sugar a couple weeks before).

Anyway, worked my way down through the hive and all the bees are dead. This is my second winter. Last winter both hives made it so this is my first loss.

Hive is HEAVY. Food was not an issue.

I put some pictures here and would love some input as to why you think this might have happened.

The box of wood shavings is a pine quilt box, under that is a ~2 inch shim with an upper entrance/ventilation built in.

My finger is pointing to where there was a large pile of bees in the bottom deep box prior to me pushing them around. It's the front of the hive.

Box with all wooden frames is the top deep box

The white stuff is sugar that fell through today while I was manipulating boxes, not mold

Thanks for all the help, everyone....

Also, why so many dead bees along the sides?

 

[jtgoral]

The round hole is on the side opposite to the side your finger is pointing at?

 

[Adam Foster Collins]

I'm sorry you lost the bees. That's always hard.

You say the hive was heavy with food. Why the dry sugar?

Were the bees concentrated on the sunny side of the box?

To get a sense of why they died, I always try to find the comb or combs that were at the center of the cluster. Are there any remains of a brood nest there? Any dead brood? That's where I'd start looking, as that is where they would have last been alive. If you need help diagnosing, you'd have to post a pic or two of what you find there.

Adam

 

[Some Bloke]

Do you see deformed wings?

Are the bodies black & shiny (old) or young and furry?

Are the bodies complete or has a mouse cheed them up?

 

[RayMarler]

You just had a cold spell right?
What is that... Parchment paper? was it over or under the sugar?
Paper under the sugar helps prevent condensation from sugar drippings onto the bees when clustered in colder weather? or is my thinking on that backwards?
Is it possible that with the recent cold the bees clustered and got sugar moisture dripping on them?
That might explain why the bees were moved over to the sides, trying to get away from condensation drips on them when clustered as the weather changed? Breaking cluster when too cold so they died from lack of heat from clustering?
I'm just posing questions, I have no answers.

 

[wildbranch2007]

you didn't say how or what you treated for mites?

 

[TimBob83]

Wow thanks for all the replies; I really appreciate it.

the hole in that shim is on the front of the hive.

their wings look normal to me; they don’t seem deformed and the bees seem to be normal size.

the dry sugar was a pre-emptive move since the weather can get so cold here that I can go months without an opportunity to open the hives. I cracked the hive a couple weeks ago and added some extra sugar (probably unnecessarily) just because I had decent weather to do it. It looks like none of that sugar has absorbed any moisture and so I bet the bees died soon after I put that on there.

The paper goes under the sugar simply to keep it on top so it doesnt fall down between the frames.

the bees certainly seem to be clustered on the east, south and west sides of the hive….perhaps they were migrating to the warmer parts of the hive.

no chewed bodies.

we had a pretty good cold snap a few weeks ago. -30 with wind chills around -50 so I guess it’s possible that did them in somehow

I’ll look into the frames around d where thecluster was found and post some pictures.

Again, thank you so much for all the replies. Hopefully someday I can return the favor!

 

[crofter]

What is the bottom surface of the shavings box? how many inches of shavings? That looks like quite a large gap between your feed shim and the shavings box. Was the hive wrapped or insulated?

 

[GregB]

Per your pictures - there is no well-formed cluster.
Rather, the bees are scattered all over (see my picture pasted).

This is similar to the losses I had this season - typically very late brooding/no well-formed clusters.
I write these off as poor genetics unfit for the harsh winter location and/or extra susceptible to the mites.

My similar failures are the result of open mating with whatever undesirable drones are in the area.
(a reasonable theory - as the majority of closely related bees winter just fine side-by-side with the dead ones and with identical management).).

What was the source of these dead bees, if known?

 

[grozzie2]

Pictures of the top bars tell us little to nothing about why the colony died. You really need to look face on at the frames from the brood nest area to understand why they perished.

 

[TimBob83]

Per your pictures - there is no well-formed cluster.
Rather, the bees are scattered all over (see my picture pasted).

This is similar to the losses I had this season - typically very late brooding/no well-formed clusters.
I write these off as poor genetics unfit for the harsh winter location and/or extra susceptible to the mites.

My similar failures are the result of open mating with whatever undesirable drones are in the area.
(a reasonable theory - as the majority of closely related bees winter just fine side-by-side with the dead ones and with identical management).).

What was the source of these dead bees, if known?

View attachment 73714 i

Interesting theory about genetics. This hive had an emergency queen (I squashed her mother) mated with wild drones in the area. I figured if anything, genetics would be better for that hive since they had some wild-type DNA.

there was a larger “lump” of bees where I’m pointing but now that you point it out, they do seem to be pretty scattered.

regarding the gap…that was after I realized they were dead. Just kind flopped the boxes back together so gap is larger than usual

I’ll get some pictures of the frames…was cold and didn’t want to spend a ton of time out there

 

[GregB]

.... mated with wild drones in the area. I figured if anything, genetics would be better for that hive since they had some wild-type DNA.

You don't know IF you have "wild drones in the area".
You don't know about the "wild-type DNA".
Don't assume this at all.

Back to:
What are feral bees anyway? | Beesource Beekeeping Forums

 

[TimBob83]

You don't know IF you have "wild drones in the area".
You don't know about the "wild-type DNA".
Don't assume this at all.

Back to:
What are feral bees anyway? | Beesource Beekeeping Forums

That's fair.

 

[TimBob83]

you didn't say how or what you treated for mites?

Thanks for asking.

I treated with OAV. Mite counts were good although to be honest, I had a new little one around and moved to a new house around the same time. Might have gotten light on the treatments towards fall given how full the plate was.

Regardless of if the mites caused the problem (let's be honest....they basically contribute to all problems), I'm going to make sure to stay more on top of that for this upcoming season.

 

[Gray Goose]

Hi Tim
the first 2 pics were the only ones with any data for me.
I use a quilt box as well
the quilt box looked only partly filled, i topp mine off and pat them a little so the insulation is more dence.
Big question were the pics before you opened the hive? pic 1 is what I am asking.
there looks to be a 1/4 inch gap inbetween the shim and the quilt box, was the sugar pile high enough to prop up the quilt box if YES then the bees lost too much heat and likely perished due to this gap. Here in Mich that gap is a death sentence.

the frames will tell more of the story, pics of the top bars do not offer much info.
if there is a lot of sugar on the Bottom board, then it rained on the bees, I use bricks to avoid this issue.

when did you put the sugar in the hive?

GG

 

[John Davis]

Go to Empire State honey producers association website and get the document in their resources "Wintering bees in cold climates"
First part is preparing for winter around page 11-12 starts a dicotomous key with pictures to help you do a hive autopsy.
The bees need to be in contact with food if clustered. They can run out of energy in just a few days with food only an inch away. Get to root cause, not just a symptom.

 

[crofter]

You did not reply to question about wrapping or insulation or what material was the bottom of the shavings quilt box.

 

[A Novice]

Really hard to say.

Pull frames, find if there is a cluster.

It looks like there were a lot of bees in the hive. Depending on the bees and your insulation and ventilation they may have kept the entire hive pretty warm - hence no cluster. A big colony with limited ventilation keeps the hive warm, especially at the top. Last year, the air in the top of my hives varied from 40F to 80F, depending on cluster location and size. (I keep a 3 inch air space above the top frames, sometimes with sugar cake, sometimes not)
In that situation, I suppose a sudden chill might get them. Lack of moisture could also be a problem if there was ample ventilation. The bees on the outside could be looking for condensation, but if the heat balance is right and there is some top ventilation the hive could get pretty dry. Just idle speculation.

Sorry you lost your bees.

Some bees are smarter than others - objectively speaking. You might have gotten bees that weren't "smart" enough to form a cluster when the weather turned cold.

 

[TF_Beek]

The bottom board can tell you a lot too - is there pile of bees? Are they moldy? Are there varroa? Is it perfectly clean? All these things help with the diagnosis.

Very odd to see the bees scattered through the hive with no real cluster, especially in your area. Spread across two deeps as well

Agree with the other comments that the brood frames will tend to provide more information.

Without any more details I would say the queen died and the rest of the colony panicked on a warm day then froze out that night when they couldn't figure out where to cluster, but that's a real shot in the dark.

 

[TimBob83]

There wasn't a gap like that the whole season. That picture is after I'd taken everything apart and I just tossed it back together to get a picture of where the upper entrance was.

No wrap or insulation on sides. The material underneath the quilt box is window screening....it's what I had laying around. Last year was burlap because that's what I had laying around.

The quilt box is definitely underfilled. I guess I thought "good enough." Lesson learned. The stink of it is that I definitely filled it to the brim last year.

I'm going to read up on that Empire state honey producers information...take some pictures of the frames this weekend and post them here.

Again everyone, I really appreciate the input.