[Tigger19687]

oh nevermind.......... nothing will change here
Ignore again

 

[Struttinbuck]

The mites in Apis Cerrana strictly only use the drone cells to reproduce. They never reproduce in worker brood and that is how ceranna beat Varroa.
I love that. The worker bees are totally mite free during their development stage. Once they emerge then it's game on. But until then they develop perfect.

 

[Litsinger]

Dr. de Guzman has found evidence of this in varroa-resistant Western honey bees too:

Social Apoptosis in Varroa Mite Resistant Western Honey Bees (Apis mellifera) - PubMed

Honey bees are eusocial animals that exhibit both individual and social immune responses, which influence colony health. This is especially well-studied regarding the mite Varroa destructor Anderson and Trueman (Parasitiformes: Varroidae), a parasite of honey bee brood and disease vector. Varroa...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Struttinbuck]

Dr. de Guzman has found evidence of this in varroa-resistant Western honey bees too:

Social Apoptosis in Varroa Mite Resistant Western Honey Bees (Apis mellifera) - PubMed

Honey bees are eusocial animals that exhibit both individual and social immune responses, which influence colony health. This is especially well-studied regarding the mite Varroa destructor Anderson and Trueman (Parasitiformes: Varroidae), a parasite of honey bee brood and disease vector. Varroa...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Good article. Thanks.
I have had Russian bees and I love them. I think I might let them draw their own brood comb this year and start checking for those traits. I believe they usually make 20-30% drone comb? Something like that. And maybe go to a double brood chamber.
Lots to think about.

 

[Litsinger]

Lots to think about.

Always is, isn't there? Bees have a good way of keeping us guessing.

 

[Struttinbuck]

Always is, isn't there? Bees have a good way of keeping us guessing.

They sure do.

 

[HaplozygousNut]

The African bees invasive in South America are said to be very resistant to Varroa, too. Although I don't know if they use this method of workers dying to keep varroa from breeding.

 

[msl]

that is how ceranna beat Varroa

only sort of... they have a sweet of traits that we commly see varroa select for in feral AM ... small, swarmy, agressive, and unproductive colonies these traits are at odds with the needs of humans
they keep a smaller brood nest/forgage force size (about 1/2 of AM) with the queen laying about 1/3 the amout of eggs of AM(depending on whoes numbers you use, abscond at around a 50% rate (witch is the same as a dead hive to the keeper )+a 21% conly failyre rate for a VERY high yearly losss rate, produce about 80% less honey, carry 1/2 the pollen per bee, are about 3x more agressive and go laying worker in 2-3 days (one of the reasons they dwindle)

this study packs many of the facts in to one location

https://www.worldwidejournals.com/paripex/recent_issues_pdf/2015/March/March_2015_1427458189__47.pdf

Study revealed that average pollen load recorded per bee was more than double in case A. mellifera (22.2 mg) as compared to that of A. cerana (10.5 mg). This difference might be due to different morphological, behavioural and innate characteristics of two species of honeybees. Similar type of results were given regarding pollen carrying capacities of these species by Mishra and Kumar (1998).
Average honey yield was noted 25kg. and 6.5 kg/colony/year in case of A. mellifera and A. cerana respectively. These results are in line with those given by Mishra and Kumar (1998). Mean egg laying capacity of queen/day was 900 in A. mellifera while 310 in A. cerana. Similar type of observations had been taken by many workers (Atwal and Sharma, 1968 ; Hameed and Adlakha, 1973) that the egg laying capacity of A. mellifera queen was much higher than that of A. cerana (Table-1).
Swarming and absconding took place more frequently in A. cerana. No absconding was recorded in A. mellifera even during dearth period (May to July). Average 45 per cent colonies absconded while 21 per cent colonies dwindled in case of A. cerana while no absconding took place and 2 per cent colonies deteriorated in case of A. mellifera under adverse conditions. Strength of colonies decreased in both type of colonies but on returning of honey flow season,
A. mellifera colonies regained strength and recovered quickly as compared to those of A. cerana. During honey flow season it was very difficult to control swarming from A. cerana colonies. Many workers (Atwal and Sharma, 1968 ; 1971 ; Dhaliwal and Sharma, 1974 ; Singh, 1975 ; Woyke, 1976 ; Goyal, 1978) have verified similar results that absconding was very common in A. cerana during unfavourable conditions while it was little known in A. mellifera and it was very difficult to check swarming in populous colonies of A. cerana.
A. cerana was more aggressive as compared to A. mellifera. Colonies of A. cerana became furious on disturbing and number of stings on gloves and cloths were much more as compared to A. mellifera colonies. Hissing and more aggressive behaviour of A. cerana has already been explained (morse et al., 1967 ; Rana, 1989 ; Mishra and Kumar, 1998 ; Suryanarayana and Rao, 1998).
A. mellifera survived successfully at high temperature and under deteriorating conditions of summer as compared to A. cerana. Verma and Edwards (1971) reported similar type of results that A. mellifera could tolerate higher temperature than A. cerana. The latter was unable to thrive in the areas with much hot summers. From above results and discussion it may be concluded that A. mellifera is the best performer because it has capacity to survive under deteriorating conditions without absconding, more efficiency to collect nectar and pollen, more egg laying capacity of queen, its swarming can easily be cheaked, Number of workers per colony was much more (about double) as compared to A. cerana. A. mellifera colonies maintain their strength very efficiently. Therefore this honeybee species is recommended for beekeeping in Punjab.

https://www.worldwidejournals.com/paripex/recent_issues_pdf/2015/March/March_2015_1427458189__47.pdf

if you look in to the actual mangment of AC we see they are often treated as this boosts performance and cuts down on absconding
"the nature will over come" types have pushed ACs adaptions hard as the grail of natural selection, the truth is a bit more compuacted and no were near as rosy
AC is in declne, as it dosn't have restiance to all the AM pathingns its now exposed to

 

[Struttinbuck]

only sort of... they have a sweet of traits that we commly see varroa select for... small, swarmy, agressive, and unproductive colonies these traits are at odds with the needs of humans
they keep a smaller brood nest/forgage force size (about 1/2 of AM) with the queen laying about 1/3 the amout of eggs of AM(depending on whoes numbers you use, abscond at around a 50% rate (witch is the same as a dead hive to the keeper )+a 21% conly failyre rate for 66% yearly losss, produce about 80% less honey, carry 1/2 the pollen per bee, are about 3x more agressive and go laying worker in 2-3 days (one of the reasons they dwindle)

this study packs many of the facts in to one location

https://www.worldwidejournals.com/paripex/recent_issues_pdf/2015/March/March_2015_1427458189__47.pdf

https://www.worldwidejournals.com/paripex/recent_issues_pdf/2015/March/March_2015_1427458189__47.pdf

if you look in to the actual mangment of AC we see they are often treated as this boosts performance and cuts down on absconding

Yea, I started digging into Ceranna a little and was reading the western honey bee hives were 10 times the size in numbers.
But that pure drone deal is what got my gears rolling. Like I wonder if there is a pheromone that would work to attract mites into a bag a bug trap? Lol. Or more seriously a drone frame? That one's going to stick with me for a bit. Something's there.

 

[Struttinbuck]

only sort of... they have a sweet of traits that we commly see varroa select for in feral AM ... small, swarmy, agressive, and unproductive colonies these traits are at odds with the needs of humans
they keep a smaller brood nest/forgage force size (about 1/2 of AM) with the queen laying about 1/3 the amout of eggs of AM(depending on whoes numbers you use, abscond at around a 50% rate (witch is the same as a dead hive to the keeper )+a 21% conly failyre rate for a VERY high yearly losss rate, produce about 80% less honey, carry 1/2 the pollen per bee, are about 3x more agressive and go laying worker in 2-3 days (one of the reasons they dwindle)

this study packs many of the facts in to one location

https://www.worldwidejournals.com/paripex/recent_issues_pdf/2015/March/March_2015_1427458189__47.pdf

https://www.worldwidejournals.com/paripex/recent_issues_pdf/2015/March/March_2015_1427458189__47.pdf

if you look in to the actual mangment of AC we see they are often treated as this boosts performance and cuts down on absconding
"the nature will over come" types have pushed ACs adaptions hard as the grail of natural selection, the truth is a bit more compuacted and no were near as rosy
AC is in declne, as it dosn't have restiance to all the AM pathingns its now exposed to

Sounds like they really like Malifera.

 

[msl]

But that pure drone deal is what got my gears rolling. Like I wonder if there is a pheromone that would work to attract mites into a bag a bug trap?

To test if non-reproduction of V. jacobsoni in worker brood cells of A. cerana is due to a trait of the mites or of the honey-bee species, mites from bees in A. mellifera colonies were artificially introduced into A. cerana worker brood cells and vice versa. Approximately 80% of the mites from A. mellifera colonies reproduced in naturally infested worker cells as well as when introduced into worker cells of A. mellifera and A. cerana. Conversely, only 10% of the mites from A. cerana colonies reproduced, both in naturally infested worker cells of A. cerana and when introduced into worker cells of A. mellifera. Hence, absence of reproduction in worker cells is due to a trait of the mites.
Additional experiments showed that A. cerana bees removed 84% of the worker brood that was artificially infested with mites from A. mellifera colonies. Brood removal started 2 days after artificial infestation, which suggests that the bees responded to behaviour of the mites. Since removal behaviour of the bees will have a large impact on fitness of the mites, it probably plays an important role in selection for differential reproductive strategies.

Natural selection of Varroa jacobsoni explains the different reproductive strategies in colonies of Apis cerana and Apis mellifera - Experimental and Applied Acarology

In colonies of European Apis mellifera, Varroa jacobsoni reproduces both in drone and in worker cells. In colonies of its original Asian host, Apis cerana, the mites invade both drone and worker brood cells, but reproduce only in drone cells. Absence of reproduction in worker cells is probably...

link.springer.com

Sounds like they really like Malifera.

whole reason it was imported in the 1st place

 

[Litsinger]

Tying a few of threads together, in the recent Bob Binnie video that @Jack Grimshaw posted, Dr. Delaplane explains that mellifera is the only honey bee species without a co-adapted parasitic mite - and thus suggests (as many of us have heard) that any defense mechanism (i.e. hygienic behavior) put up by mellifera against Varroa is co-opted for a novel use (i.e. from fighting AFB to fighting Varroa).

He also suggests that this means that mellifera likely originated in Europe- interesting stuff:

Anyhow,this came out yesterday.

 

[StefanS]

Here is very nice explanation - Randy Oliver - (ABJ, January, 2019)
[....]Three recent studies have greatly helped to clear up the mystery. Lin [[4]] demonstrated that varroa indeed has the ability to successfully reproduce on cerana worker pupae. Page [[5]], showed that the pupae fight back by “social apoptosis”—being entirely intolerant of having mites feed upon them. But the most recent paper was the clincher–Zhang [[6]] discovered that cerana worker larvae appear to cue on a particular protein in the saliva of the mite, which then triggers the larva to self-sacrifice for the good of the colony. Amazingly, this cue is specific only to late-instar cerana worker larvae—it has no, or only slight, effect upon any other life stage or sex of either A. cerana or mellifera [....]
[4] Lin Z, et al. (2018) Reproduction of parasitic mites Varroa destructor in original and new honeybee hosts. Ecol Evol. 2018:1–11.

[5] Page, P, et al (2016) Social apoptosis in honey bee superorganisms. Nature Scientific Reports 6:27210

[6] Zhang, Y & R Han (2018) A saliva protein of varroa mites contributes to the toxicity toward Apis cerana and the DWV elevation in A. mellifera. Scientific Reports 8:3387

 

[Struttinbuck]

Tying a few of threads together, in the recent Bob Binnie video that @Jack Grimshaw posted, Dr. Delaplane explains that mellifera is the only honey bee species without a co-adapted parasitic mite - and thus suggests (as many of us have heard) that any defense mechanism (i.e. hygienic behavior) put up by mellifera against Varroa is co-opted for a novel use (i.e. from fighting AFB to fighting Varroa).

He also suggests that this means that mellifera likely originated in Europe- interesting stuff:

That video is hinting that we as bee keepers should be promoting alot more drone brood. That was a very good video. The more drones we have the more different traits the queen's are going to be able.to.lroduce in the drones and worker eggs they lay. Dang! Whole new view.

 

[Struttinbuck]

That video is hinting that we as bee keepers should be promoting alot more drone brood. That was a very good video. The more drones we have the more different traits the queen's are going to be able.to.lroduce in the drones and worker eggs they lay. Dang! Whole new view.

Thoughts?
Double deep 10 frame brood box.
40% drone comb, the rest of the brood chamber natural drawn. So that would consist of 8 drone frames then 12 worker brood. What would be the effects after combining these study's together?
High polyandry?
A mite magnet to the drone comb?
An almost unchanged rate of growth in the mite population?
But at the same time leaving the worker brood alone? At least until they have the drones filled up. Which would be many months if starting off clean.
???

 

[Amibusiness]

Likely the only change an average beekeeper would notice is less burr comb for drone brood. Ultimately the mites will be about the same. For anyone only raising a few queens there are likely enough drones anyway.
This changes if you are raising a lot of queens each week and if you have lots of fancy instruments or an inordinate amount of extra time on your hands to run tests on where the mites are and whom they are biting.
And just because you have 40% drone comb does not mean you will have 40% drone brood.... I have experimented with osbn. I put 50% drone comb in a box and the first comb they drew was still drone. Needless to say they put nectar in much of the drone comb, not brood....

 

[Struttinbuck]

Likely the only change an average beekeeper would notice is less burr comb for drone brood. Ultimately the mites will be about the same. For anyone only raising a few queens there are likely enough drones anyway.
This changes if you are raising a lot of queens each week and if you have lots of fancy instruments or an inordinate amount of extra time on your hands to run tests on where the mites are and whom they are biting.
And just because you have 40% drone comb does not mean you will have 40% drone brood.... I have experimented with osbn. I put 50% drone comb in a box and the first comb they drew was still drone. Needless to say they put nectar in much of the drone comb, not brood....

I was thinking the queen would still decide whether to produce more drones or not. But did you notice about what the highest level of drones she or they made?

 

[HaplozygousNut]

This method of workers dying whenever infected by Varroa sounds like an inefficient method of controlling Varroa. But if done consistently it would cause selective pressure for Varroa to infest drone brood over worker brood, and so help Varroa coexist with Apis cerana without causing severe disease?

 

[Struttinbuck]

This method of workers dying whenever infected by Varroa sounds like an inefficient method of controlling Varroa. But if done consistently it would cause selective pressure for Varroa to infest drone brood over worker brood, and so help Varroa coexist with Apis cerana without causing severe disease?

Yes. It seems the workers dying when infected is not the key. The key is the mites will now only enter a drone cell in ceranna hives. Leaving the worker brood to develop fully till they emerge.