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Discussion Starter #1
I don't recall seeing this posted in the past.
An interesting video about the life cycle of honey bees and varroa mites. Especially interesting is the suggestion that a trait exists in some bees that causes the mites to get trapped in the bee pupa's cacoon...called entombed in the cacoon. While usually uncommon they have some resistant stock where it occurs 80 - 100% of the time. Check at about 9min 30seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2vg59Snt6c
 

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Re: Another mite resistant trait - Entombed in the Cacoon

Very enlightening video Dan! Do you know who it is that's doing the research?
 

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Re: Another mite resistant trait - Entombed in the Cacoon

Very instructive! Thanks Dan for sharing. Aside from a trait in some bees to create a cacoon that traps mites, perhaps some genetic trait could be developed in the mites to cause their offspring to be sterile, or some other self-destructive behavior.

Thanks for sharing,

Phil
 

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Re: Another mite resistant trait - Entombed in the Cacoon

Cacoon? do you mean Cocoon?

This could be one of the more interesting resistance traits yet found.
 

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Re: Another mite resistant trait - Entombed in the Cacoon

its been known for a while. Seems to happy more or less randomly and seldomly, not at a high occurrence.
 

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Re: Another mite resistant trait - Entombed in the Cacoon

Cacoon? do you mean Cocoon?
Yes....I spelled it the way I say it and spell check didn't tag it....go figure.
 

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Re: Another mite resistant trait - Entombed in the Cacoon

Very enlightening video Dan! Do you know who it is that's doing the research?
I believe it is Jeff Harris at LSU.
 

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Re: Another mite resistant trait - Entombed in the Cacoon

its been known for a while. Seems to happy more or less randomly and seldomly, not at a high occurrence.
From my original post.....or you might choose to play the video.

While usually uncommon they have some resistant stock where it occurs 80 - 100% of the time.
 

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Re: Another mite resistant trait - Entombed in the Cacoon

super video beeman
 

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Re: Another mite resistant trait - Entombed in the Cacoon

super video beeman
It is pretty good....I only get credit for posting the link. Jeff Harris and Co get the real credit. I might add that it appears to have been put up on youtube nearly a year ago.
 

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Re: Another mite resistant trait - Entombed in the Cacoon

And cell size contributes to this:

http://agris.fao.org/agris-search/search.do?recordID=FR2002000640
http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/abs/2002/01/Martin/Martin.html

"The ability of Varroa destructor to reproduce in the African honey bee Apis mellifera scutellata was studied. In addition, the effects of space within the brood cell and short brood developmental time on mite reproduction, was investigated using A. m. scutellata cells parasitised by a A. m. capensis worker pseudo-clone. In A. m. scutellata worker cells Varroa produced 0.9 fertilised females per mother mite which is the same as found in susceptible European honey bees, but greater than the 0.4 produced in cells containing the pseudo-clone. Low mite reproductive success in cells containing pseudo-clone was mainly as a result of increased mite mortality. This was caused by male protonymphs and some mothers becoming trapped in the upper part of the cell due to the pseudo-clone being 8% larger than their host and not due to their short developmental time."--Reproduction of Varroa destructor in South African honey bees: does cell space influence Varroa male survivorship? Martin, S.J.
 

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Re: Another mite resistant trait - Entombed in the Cacoon

I'm pretty sure that Jeff Harris is using conventional sized cells. He clearly states that they have a 'resistant line'...pretty compelling indication that the trait is genetically linked....running counter to your insistence that varroa resistance is a result of cell size alone.
 

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Re: Another mite resistant trait - Entombed in the Cacoon

Further, both the studies referenced by MB appear to be about AHB so unless your keeping AHB they are not that relative to the discussion.
 

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Re: Another mite resistant trait - Entombed in the Cacoon

All good BUT, MB does NOT have a mite problem. For me that makes it relative to the discussion.

Bottom line is the only thing that's not disputed or involved in two sided studies is keeping strong colonies is the first line of defense. Things we KNOW work mostly deal with going backwards and removing the man made or man added items such as foundation and chemicals. Finding the balance between keeping bees and letting bees be bees needs to be the starting point. The FIRST mistake was made by Langstroth ...Foundation. If we keep on going down the road we are on we will study the Honey Bee into extinction.

Wish I could have the skeps I had in Germany they were a pleasure to watch.
 

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Re: Another mite resistant trait - Entombed in the Cacoon

>Further, both the studies referenced by MB appear to be about AHB so unless your keeping AHB they are not that relative to the discussion.

Actually NOT AfricanIZED Honey Bees. African honey bees. Genus and species are Apis mellifera. Same as European bees. We are talking about the same species. What makes you think that smaller cells will have a remarkably different effect on mites on European bees than it has on African bees? This trait of males stuck outside the cocoon was first observed on African bees and the research pointed to cell size as the cause. Now it's been observed on European bees and you think cell size doesn't contribute to this effect?
 

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Re: Another mite resistant trait - Entombed in the Cacoon

Langstroth did not invent foundation, a Johannes Mehring thought of that in 1857 after the movable frame hive was made.

Each of us have our opinion about the varroa problem and how to combat it, the problem is with the beekeeper that is complacent and does nothing. That problem usually solves itself when he stops keeping bees.

Mr. Bush, why do you think it must be the cell size, and it can't be a trait that is in the bee?
 

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Re: Another mite resistant trait - Entombed in the Cacoon

The researcher was the one who concluded that:
Reproduction of Varroa destructor in South African honey bees: does cell space influence Varroa male survivorship? Martin, S.J.

I have done no research on the subject.
 

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Re: Another mite resistant trait - Entombed in the Cacoon

The researcher was the one who concluded that:
Reproduction of Varroa destructor in South African honey bees: does cell space influence Varroa male survivorship? Martin, S.J.
That was not the conclusion....it was the title of the study and a question. The study was a convoluted effort to put a worker pseudo clone of Apis mellifera capensis in an unnaturally small cell produced by Apis mellifer scutellata and see if that concocted mixture had some effect on mite reproduction.
The conclusion of the study was Therefore, mite populations in South African A. m. scutellata and A. m. capensis honey bees are expected to increase to levels observed in Europe and USA.
Do you believe there is some relationship between the study you cited and the 'entombed in the cocoon' trait that Jeff Harris describes? Do you think this somehow supports your small cell theories?
I fail to see any real world connection whatsoever.
 

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Re: Another mite resistant trait - Entombed in the Cacoon

>That was not the conclusion....

Yes. It was.

"In A. m. scutellata worker cells Varroa produced 0.9 fertilised females per mother mite which is the same as found in susceptible European honey bees, but greater than the 0.4 produced in cells containing the pseudo-clone. Low mite reproductive success in cells containing pseudo-clone was mainly as a result of increased mite mortality. This was caused by male protonymphs and some mothers becoming trapped in the upper part of the cell due to the pseudo-clone being 8% larger than their host and not due to their short developmental time."

I think I have this at home somewhere. I've seen the entire study. The males were getting trapped outside the cocoons in the small cells and not in the large cells. The portion stating that in their abstract is above in this post and in the previous quote. The point was that it was not the shorter time but the male survivorship that was the issue in the Varroa having less success on African bees. I realize all the "pseudo-clone" terminology is a bit confusing but small cell causing trapped males was the conclusion of the study.
 

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Re: Another mite resistant trait - Entombed in the Cacoon

The researcher was the one who concluded that:
Reproduction of Varroa destructor in South African honey bees: does cell space influence Varroa male survivorship? Martin, S.J.
Read your statement carefully MB. This is a question and the title to the study. This isn't a conclusion.
To paraphrase the actual conclusions I'd say.....putting an oversized bee in an unnaturally undersized cell will impact male Varroa survivorship......Who'd argue with that? But then I have to ask....what does that have to do with your small cell theories or any other real world things? I'll go a step further. The abstract also states that Am scutellata and Am capensis on their natural cell have the same varroa reproduction rates as reported for EHB. So much for any claims that going foundationless results in reduced mite infestation. In fact....I think this study probably goes toward pointing out the fallacies in the idea of reduced mite loads using small and natural cell.
I read this study a few years ago and had forgotten its implications. Thanks for reminding me.
And absolutely none of the above have doodly to do with entombed in the cocoon.....which was the original point.
 
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