There was a discussion on here the other day about how the AHB have a tendency not form tight clusters to stay warm during cold spells. I can’t remember the thread or the links provided, but the basis was anything below 32f for 4 hours or more was enough to kill off an AHB hive.

I am going to see where I seen that, and get the link to thread here.

Info:
Thread: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?329271-Africanized-honey-bees-Bad-Rap

Link of info: http://prx.sagepub.com/content/81/3/707.full.pdf

 

So my hypothesis is that they will become a lot less aggressive while perhaps staying quite a bit defensive as well as losing their frequent swarming characteristic.

thoughts?

They've traveled roughly 6000 miles from South America to Florida. Don't see the big "tapering off" you are looking for so far.

 

Ahb do cluster to stay warm. This was studied at the usda bee research laboratory in Tucson Arizona. The reason they swarm alot is they build fast and to spread that gene like any other invasive species. Aggressiveness trait is simply to protect and take if necessary. And I have seen both of those behaviors.

 

Your kinda right.... their nature is from yheir environment. Hot, dry, when nectar flows it happens quickly and sparadocly. Trees are smaller in diameter and more sparse.

 

Life finds a way ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oijEsqT2QKQ

 

With the "free ride" offered by migratory beekeeping, and mail order packages & queens, they should have long ago washed across the North American continent. They've already hit a geographic boundary. If not, they'd be in Alaska by now. These are tropical insects. They have hundreds of thousands of years of genetic pre-disposition to seek and settle in warmer climates.

The sky is not falling. Read about them in Africa. There, they are isolated by geographic boundaries, and have been for millennia. There are nearly a dozen other kinds of honey bees that have been co-existing with them, there, for millennia. They haven't taken over Africa. What makes you think they will change their ways, just because they are in the Americas?

They've had plenty of time to head further south in South America, yet haven't - WHY?

 

Well I have noticed alot of people end up with mean or aggressive bees at least so they say. So maybe they have already spread into other regions? and the breeding has kept them acceptable in those areas. They are no longer tracked on a map. Look at the dates. Pretty sure there was some in Colorado last year? They dont go south in Africa cause of the cape bee?

 

...Pretty sure there was some in Colorado last year? They don't go south in Africa cause of the cape bee?

And what about South America?

Yeah, there was one lone report that one colony may have made it up out of the desert southwest, up the Colorado River, to the extreme low elevation & warm margins of Colorado, on the western slope. Makes limited sense. One report, but I never saw a follow up. A warm year, a warm winter, and one colony may have overwintered. Now the press has gone silent ( since "No Africans = not newsworthy?)".

They are tropical insects. They have a genetic code dialed to "tropical". They don't appear to be adapting well to the cold. They never have, & likely never will. Mother nature is in charge, after all. 'Seen any Polar bears in Arizona (yet)?

In Africa the "Monticola" bees exist, surrounded by Africans, some of the gentlest bees on record (according to Brother Adam). They appear to have been doing so since before records were kept. Again - do some research on AHB in Africa before shouting "The sky is falling". It may be, in your region, at certain times, that Africanized bees may pay a visit, or set up shop, but come on, get a grip.

My condolences to those who live in Tropical climates - hope for the best.

The sky is not falling. At least not everywhere. And probably never will, here... I'm so glad I live in Colorado, for so many reasons...

 

I'm not convinced they do well in northern regions. I have Africaized hive and Italians from California, the behavior of the two changes big time in cooler weather. My Africanized hardly move in cool weather.

 

I got a hive from Flagstaff and they were mean like my africans and it gets below 32 there several months of the year. They may not move fast in the winter but they manage to survive.

 

It was long ago correlated to rainfall, hence foraging behavior.
Spread of Scutellata in Africa

Mean Annual Rainfall in Africa

Spread of Scutellata in Florida

Florida average rainfall

 

Whoa. I never said the sky was falling. Mother nature is not in control. People ship/transport all over the place, not mother nature.

 

Mother nature is not in control. People ship/transport all over the place, not mother nature.

I completely disagree. Mother nature dictates that they can't make it in cold climates. They've not successfully gone past mid Oklahoma for the past decade or so. Have the traveled beyond there? Certainly, but they've been unable to handle the winters. This is all to do about nothing.

 

I am in Morristown Arizona and though AHB are indeed in the Southern part of our state we do not see issues here in the central Sonoran Desert yet. Media hypes it up so everyone in the state thinks every bee they see will attack them and it is just not true. It will be what it will bee....

 

I agree it does look like the migration North pretty much stalled out years ago. Occassionally someone will discover AHB farther north in a hive like what happened here in TN in 2012 and all of the media announce "Killer Bees Have Arrived!!" because that is what sells. Of course in that instance they took care of the single case an no more AHB since.

 

I'm fairly certain that I've dealt with Africanized bees. I'm also fairly certain that, as indicated in the link provided by Harley Craig ( http://prx.sagepub.com/content/81/3/707.full.pdf ) they can NOT handle any kind of extended harsh cold winters like those in Colorado and much of the rest of the country. I've NOT seen the genetics gain a lasting foothold, here.

During warm months, they may be able to set up shop & wreak havoc, unless dealt with swiftly & mercilessly. I have a "zero tolerance" approach - whether Africanized or just aggressive. I don't want the neighbors complaining that they can't do yard work because of my bees. Mother Nature does seem to have limited AHB to just an occasional visit here - in the warmest months of summer.

Each of us has our own set of circumstances. Some have no choice but to deal the hand they are dealt. The majority of North American beeks need to be vigilant, and prepared to dispatch trouble where trouble arises.

Almost everyone loves dogs, but most will put down a rabid one. Similar concept with AHB/AHB crosses in beekeeping. My heart goes out to those who are forced to deal with AHB. I think I just might give up beekeeping if that were the case for me. That would kick a pretty big dent in my life.

 

I agree. I would like to only have nice bees around but its very difficult to maintain that. So I keep the nice ones at my house and the mean ones in the desert. But I have mean ones in my neighborhood some where on someones property.

 

I'd like to mention the situation here in N.E. Arizona. It seems unique. This area is split, with an uplift from desert, to the high center of the continent, passing thru the state.

I can drive from this high prarie, 6600 ft. and be in low desert, AHB country, in an hour. Its 60 miles. The swarms follow the streams and rivers, here, and to even higher elevations. There are mountains near here, 11000 ft. They are here, and hybridise easily.

I catch bees that seem Euro, some that are typical AHB. And, of course, hybrids.

The absolute Worst!!! are the hybrids. They get big, an EHB trait. But, build much faster. The worst, will quickly get large, and have an agressive attitude worse that typical AHB. Those ones, even when small, cannot be near people, or pets. It seems the mixed bees are of much worse agression than AHB.

They usurp gentle hives, send multiple swarms, will rob to death a row of hives, & are very difficult to requeen splits with common bee strains. They commonly swarm in September, when regular bees are getting ready for winter. These swarms seem to be bent on usurpation. The basic AHB do not make large colonies, as a desert subspecies, it is not a good desert adaptation.

They overwinter very well, having inherited that cold tolerance from EHB. As they cross with other hybrids, these traits have stabilised, until I can get reliable splits of the same type with local ferals.

They tolerate these cold winter, dry high desert conditions much better than domestic strains. But, some throwbacks, will die out. The AHB do not winter well here. In the last 10 years, they have altered the native genome.

The reports of more agressive bees in various places the last few years may be due to this.

Moonlight, my real world experiences in 10 years of beekeeping here, tends to show that AHB traits are fairly persistant. My holy grail; to get the huge size, better productivity, and adaptability in a gentle bee. The biggest fault seems to be enhanced agression in hybrids. So far, that's not worked out.

 

Best reply so far! Very interesting stuff there. Thanks for sharing.

 

agree nice info from those who have been doing it. i'm banking northern cold will stop them. average Arizona low is 40s? up here in January that is when we go out without jackets. maybe they can hybridize eventually to withstand it but I have to think we're talking decades for a species to adapt.
I started last year and best I can figure my bees were f1 hybrids(carni,minesota,italian muts). still have them and man I love them for their production but when they get 2 deeps they are out for blood. 2 weeks ago i took off the top cover and a little smoke and i had veil hits every second. i'm interested to see what straight Africans are like.

 

agree nice info from those who have been doing it. i'm banking northern cold will stop them. average Arizona low is 40s? .

Arizona is 45% forested. 1/3 or more of the state is above 5000 feet. Here at 6600 feet we have 4 seasons. It snows, but its rather dry, so more often its cold, with high winds.Last years coldest night here was -18° F. Many nights are -5 to -10 all thru Jan & Feb. This home is 17 miles from a ski area. You dont know whats in Az!😁

The AHB are surviving here, thru their hybrid offspring. Those decades you mentioned, may bring them to your state.

 

They dont bounce off.lol

 

Kaizen, I don't think the AHB are thriving enormously up here, it is like you said, it can take a while to adapt. But, the hybrids are doing that.

It's pretty cold here, You won't see a flyer at all for 3 months in winter. Too cold for a liquid feeder by mid November. Often the highs are below 40°. If you follow the rule of, "dont open a hive below 50°, you wont open at all for a few months. And, if they have sufficient stores, those mean bees winter over.

Elevation matters, the highest point on the whole East coast, is lower than here.

I kinda think, it's only a matter of time before the hybrids tolerate more cold., and move north.

For Az's low elevations, it's year round beekeeping. Many plants are adapted to live more of the life cycle in winter. Summer dormancy is common in desert plants.
AHB didn't have to do much adapting down there.

 

I kinda think, it's only a matter of time before the hybrids tolerate more cold., and move north.

Ayuh...life will find a way

 

It's estimated that Africanized bees will not survive where there are fewer than 240 frost-free days a year. Thus, Northern limits would extend in a wiggly line from San Francisco through the southern tier of states and up to Fayetteville, NC. A less specific northern limit would be the 34th parallel of north latitude, which passes through Columbia, SC and just north of Athens, GA.