Beesource Beekeeping Forums banner

A possible explanation for why not treating works better some places than others

5K views 77 replies 15 participants last post by  unstunghero 
#1 ·
I've been thinking again, A dangerous habit, (I know).

It has occurred to me that the best survival strategy for mites depends a lot on how many hives are in an area. (not that mites think these things through, so using strategy to describe pattern of behavior)

A hive that dies over winter (at least in colder climates) is a loss for the mites and for the bees. In this part of the country, if the only losses to mites were overwintering losses, the mites would die out pretty quickly.

Now when I say mites, I mean mites and their complement of viruses. "Bad" mites are likely mites with virulent viral strains, "manageable" mites are mites with less infectious or deadly viral strains.

So let us postulate "bad" mites, and "manageable" mites. How "bad" mites go bad is another rabbit trail...

Consider the hypothetical case below:

I am a beekeeper living in relative isolation. There are a few feral colonies in the area, perhaps, but they don't have "bad" mites, and so they survive in relative isolation. I have (just to pick a number) 100 hives located in relatively close proximity, so my bees rule the skies.

When I started beekeeping, I had horrible losses at first, because most of my bees came from somewhere, and brought a mixture of "bad" mites and "manageable" mites with them.

I didn't treat of course, but I kept my hives small by using 8 frame and not trying to prevent swarming. So the hives with mostly "bad" mites didn't thrive, and didn't swarm much, and mostly died off in the winter. Some of them died off in the summer, and I mite bombed my own hives, but since not all of the surviving colonies got in on the robbing, a few colonies, with mostly "manageable" mites survived and I split them. I also caught swarms which were second generation from my own bees that swarmed the year before. They survived because they didn't have "bad" mites. So mites that killed colonies over winter were strongly selected against, and in a few years I had mostly "manageable" mites.

I looked at this and saw that my winter survival rates were better than my brother could get where he was keeping bees, even though he was treating them year-round.

So I sold him 100 packages of my survivor stock and explained to him they were superior bees. highly resistant to mites, and that there was no need to treat or monitor for mites.

He put those packages to work right away, and they started off great. Being packages, they didn't have a lot of mites, and the ones they did have were "manageable"

But he lived in an area where there were other beekeepers, and winters were really mild. Those other beekeepers had bees with really "bad" mites, and their drones brought them around. Pretty soon, his colonies started collapsing. I didn't know why, but I thought maybe the bees needed to acclimate to their new surroundings. After all, I had that happen to me at first too. His neighbors didn't know why, but their hives started collapsing too, because their bees were robbing his hives, which now had lots of "bad" mites.

I sold them packages too, but even though they treated regularly, my superior bees didn't do any better in their hives.

Winter was very mild where my brother lived, and so pretty much every time a hive collapsed, it was warm enough for robbers to carry its mites back home.

My brother bought another 100 packages from me, and a copy of my new book, "EASY BEEKEEPING". But it didn't help him much at all. They all died.

I told him to rebuild using local feral swarms, and he tried that. Sadly, the local swarms were mostly from his neighbors' hives, which had a mixture of "bad" mites, and "manageable" mites, and his neighbors' drones also brought him plenty of "bad" mites. His hives all died.

I explained to him this was just weak bees dying, and it was better that way. I encouraged him to try again.

He told folks at his local beekeepers' association he had gone TF, of course, and several of them decided to buy packages from me. But later he didn't tell them how all his hives collapsed. It was too embarrassing.

This went on for a few years. My brother still keeps bees. I think he is treating them, but I'm not sure. He doesn't talk about it, but he did stop buying my bees. Family gatherings are awkward.

...

Notice that in this parable, the bees are all the same, resistant bees are an illusion. This may not be true in some cases.
Notice that "bad" mites are strongly selected against only in the case of winter losses, where both bees and mites die.
Mites that are "bad" enough to cause late summer losses, but not so "bad" as to cause high winter losses in the hives that rob out the hives they killed, would possibly do better than either truly "bad" or "manageable" mites.

DISCLAIMER

I have 5 hives, and I treat them as needed, which is quite a bit more than I like.
This is armchair science - where anything we suppose is true because it sounds true, where the most significant factors are the ones we think of, where no other factors are very significant, and there are no unintended consequences of our actions, so don't take it too seriously.
 
See less See more
#70 ·
I met with A. Novice this afternoon at a coffee house, and learned more of his views. He may report on what I spoke of. We did postulate a simple experiment that might help resolve if the "Snotty" brrod is the fault of the queen or of the comb the brood is in.



Crazy Roland
 
#78 ·
I've been thinking again, A dangerous habit, (I know).

It has occurred to me that the best survival strategy for mites depends a lot on how many hives are in an area. (not that mites think these things through, so using strategy to describe pattern of behavior)

A hive that dies over winter (at least in colder climates) is a loss for the mites and for the bees. In this part of the country, if the only losses to mites were overwintering losses, the mites would die out pretty quickly.

Now when I say mites, I mean mites and their complement of viruses. "Bad" mites are likely mites with virulent viral strains, "manageable" mites are mites with less infectious or deadly viral strains.

So let us postulate "bad" mites, and "manageable" mites. How "bad" mites go bad is another rabbit trail...

Consider the hypothetical case below:

I am a beekeeper living in relative isolation. There are a few feral colonies in the area, perhaps, but they don't have "bad" mites, and so they survive in relative isolation. I have (just to pick a number) 100 hives located in relatively close proximity, so my bees rule the skies.

When I started beekeeping, I had horrible losses at first, because most of my bees came from somewhere, and brought a mixture of "bad" mites and "manageable" mites with them.

I didn't treat of course, but I kept my hives small by using 8 frame and not trying to prevent swarming. So the hives with mostly "bad" mites didn't thrive, and didn't swarm much, and mostly died off in the winter. Some of them died off in the summer, and I mite bombed my own hives, but since not all of the surviving colonies got in on the robbing, a few colonies, with mostly "manageable" mites survived and I split them. I also caught swarms which were second generation from my own bees that swarmed the year before. They survived because they didn't have "bad" mites. So mites that killed colonies over winter were strongly selected against, and in a few years I had mostly "manageable" mites.

I looked at this and saw that my winter survival rates were better than my brother could get where he was keeping bees, even though he was treating them year-round.

So I sold him 100 packages of my survivor stock and explained to him they were superior bees. highly resistant to mites, and that there was no need to treat or monitor for mites.

He put those packages to work right away, and they started off great. Being packages, they didn't have a lot of mites, and the ones they did have were "manageable"

But he lived in an area where there were other beekeepers, and winters were really mild. Those other beekeepers had bees with really "bad" mites, and their drones brought them around. Pretty soon, his colonies started collapsing. I didn't know why, but I thought maybe the bees needed to acclimate to their new surroundings. After all, I had that happen to me at first too. His neighbors didn't know why, but their hives started collapsing too, because their bees were robbing his hives, which now had lots of "bad" mites.

I sold them packages too, but even though they treated regularly, my superior bees didn't do any better in their hives.

Winter was very mild where my brother lived, and so pretty much every time a hive collapsed, it was warm enough for robbers to carry its mites back home.

My brother bought another 100 packages from me, and a copy of my new book, "EASY BEEKEEPING". But it didn't help him much at all. They all died.

I told him to rebuild using local feral swarms, and he tried that. Sadly, the local swarms were mostly from his neighbors' hives, which had a mixture of "bad" mites, and "manageable" mites, and his neighbors' drones also brought him plenty of "bad" mites. His hives all died.

I explained to him this was just weak bees dying, and it was better that way. I encouraged him to try again.

He told folks at his local beekeepers' association he had gone TF, of course, and several of them decided to buy packages from me. But later he didn't tell them how all his hives collapsed. It was too embarrassing.

This went on for a few years. My brother still keeps bees. I think he is treating them, but I'm not sure. He doesn't talk about it, but he did stop buying my bees. Family gatherings are awkward.

...

Notice that in this parable, the bees are all the same, resistant bees are an illusion. This may not be true in some cases.
Notice that "bad" mites are strongly selected against only in the case of winter losses, where both bees and mites die.
Mites that are "bad" enough to cause late summer losses, but not so "bad" as to cause high winter losses in the hives that rob out the hives they killed, would possibly do better than either truly "bad" or "manageable" mites.

DISCLAIMER

I have 5 hives, and I treat them as needed, which is quite a bit more than I like.
This is armchair science - where anything we suppose is true because it sounds true, where the most significant factors are the ones we think of, where no other factors are very significant, and there are no unintended consequences of our actions, so don't take it too seriously.
You should attempt to prove at least a small portion of your theories. To just throw all this out there, doesn't do anything, and gives the impression that you're scatterbrained. Try focusing on one part of this at a time. You might want to start with the "bad" or "manageable" mites.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top