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Seriously, I despise lotteries and especially their promoters. Capitlalizing on human misery. encoraging people to think there is reasonable odds of return on their investment. There is not! Collectively people lose.
Trying different options and decisions by the process of elimination is not in the same league at all as lotteries. Here, each wrong answer if recorded, takes you closer to the goal.
I dont feel empowered by using time and resources in blind stabbing: most especially so if it is not even a known whether there is a cat in the bag at all!
I rather spend it on activities with smaller rewards but more certainty.
 

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5 ,8 ,10 frame, and long Lang
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Maybe buying and propagating resistant stock?
from where?
how did the ones you obtained pan out in 1, year 2 years, 3 years?

nothing personal, I see this answer a lot, and do not see many 3 years results published.

I'll do mine to break the Ice. No queen I have purchased with "resistant" any where in the discussion or description , is still in my Apiary after 28 months, and none swarmed out. (of the last 10 years of incoming Queens)

in the 70's and 80's had several last to 5 and 6 years.
If you have resistant queens 3 years or longer please chime in. I am looking for some.

GG
 

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... how did the ones you obtained pan out in 1, year 2 years, 3 years?
In full disclosure, I have never obtained any resistant stock from outside my neighborhood.

In my first year back in beekeeping, I bought two 'small-cell' packages and they failed from PMS in the first season. To the seller's defense, they were never advertised as resistant.

If my results indicate that I need to change my current approach, I might start with some stock from Cory Stevens.

He is located about 100 miles west of me: Mite resistant honeybees | Stevens Bee Company LLC | Bloomfield
 

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I ranted about lotteries because they are to me, comparable to the "wishful thinking" that has driven much of the most talked about small scale aspirations that power the treatment free forums.
At a higher level the mechanism whereby an organism is tricked into working against itself own best interests is well known. The auto immune conditions such as rheumatoid arthritis etc. trigger the bodies defence system into self destruction. We have a very present reminder of this with the covid viruses. Science has come up with a counter and the virus changes tactics slightly. Extremely high tech and with expensive equipment.

Perhaps some mechanism could be triggered to make the mites defensive system similarly work against itself. Either high level experimentation or extremely unlikely blind luck could do the trick.

The latter is the most popular engagement and is what I consider buying lottery tickets. I see the most likelihood of positive developments coming from sources at a much, much higher level of technology and funding. Dabbing at the problem by a plumber with the tools and skill set of a plumber is not going to cut it. Now it is nice to have a plumber on hand if his services are required but please tell him not to touch any buttons unless instructed! Screen your plumbers and try to sort out the ones with delusions of grandeur! They could be very dangerous. Such experiments can go very bad!

I was considered a pretty handy pipefitter, mechanic, and equipment operator but I dont have any delusions about coming up with breakthroughs in genetic manipulations.
 

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In full disclosure, I have never obtained any resistant stock from outside my neighborhood.

In my first year back in beekeeping, I bought two 'small-cell' packages and they failed from PMS in the first season. To the seller's defense, they were never advertised as resistant.

If my results indicate that I need to change my current approach, I might start with some stock from Cory Stevens.

He is located about 100 miles west of me: Mite resistant honeybees | Stevens Bee Company LLC | Bloomfield
looked at the site you kindly offered.
Virgins and breeder queen AI only odd none open mated.
So he does not feel he has a good drone pool perhaps.
the virgins would use the same drones I have in the "Hood" so if they were not up to par how would they do in with a different Virgin, I wonder.

Any one here on BS get a Virgin from Cory Stevens and find when Mated they did not need to treat?

thanks
GG
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
Seriously, I despise lotteries and especially their promoters. Capitlalizing on human misery. encoraging people to think there is reasonable odds of return on their investment. There is not! Collectively people lose.
Trying different options and decisions by the process of elimination is not in the same league at all as lotteries. Here, each wrong answer if recorded, takes you closer to the goal.
I dont feel empowered by using time and resources in blind stabbing: most especially so if it is not even a known whether there is a cat in the bag at all!
I rather spend it on activities with smaller rewards but more certainty.
For many years Wisconsin had a lottery tax credit for homeowners. It was $50 or something like that. In order to receive the credit, you had to actively claim it by certifying you were a homeowner and thus eligible. The details escape me somewhat. I only ever received the credit once by mistake. The lottery is like robbing a blind person by pretending to be their friend. I can't take their money.
 

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I ranted about lotteries because they are to me, comparable to the "wishful thinking" that has driven much of the most talked about small scale aspirations that power the treatment free forums.
At a higher level the mechanism whereby an organism is tricked into working against itself own best interests is well known. The auto immune conditions such as rheumatoid arthritis etc. trigger the bodies defence system into self destruction. We have a very present reminder of this with the covid viruses. Science has come up with a counter and the virus changes tactics slightly. Extremely high tech and with expensive equipment.

Perhaps some mechanism could be triggered to make the mites defensive system similarly work against itself. Either high level experimentation or extremely unlikely blind luck could do the trick.

The latter is the most popular engagement and is what I consider buying lottery tickets. I see the most likelihood of positive developments coming from sources at a much, much higher level of technology and funding. Dabbing at the problem by a plumber with the tools and skill set of a plumber is not going to cut it. Now it is nice to have a plumber on hand if his services are required but please tell him not to touch any buttons unless instructed! Screen your plumbers and try to sort out the ones with delusions of grandeur! They could be very dangerous. Such experiments can go very bad!

I was considered a pretty handy pipefitter, mechanic, and equipment operator but I dont have any delusions about coming up with breakthroughs in genetic manipulations.
Morning @crofter

folks want to "make a difference" read save the planet, save the bees, save whatever...
the idea that they are here , eat, poop, and then not here, and have almost Zero impact, does not do the sense of self any happy juju. So we as mere humans engage in "something" to feel we have an impact.
My only impact will be a few birds and squirrels will thank me for the 50,000 trees I have planted.
dreaming can be entertainment, so there is always that.

GG
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 ·
The problem with experimental science is that the more variability of outcomes you find in a sample of identical items tested in the same way, and the smaller the difference on average between your test population and your control population - the larger your sample size needs to be to find anything that is likely to be significant.

This is why in many cases results in published scientific literature are not repeatable.

If you have 2 hives - with sister queens of the same age, populated with package bees that are thoroughly mixed, in new hives with foundation (to minimize variability) 3-pound packages started in April in Wisconsin...

One may build up and put up 60 pounds of surplus, the other may barely survive.

If the difference is due to some intrinsic difference in the queens, then selecting from the "good" hive should quickly produce good results. But it won't. So that isn't it.

If the difference reflects the natural variability in the life of honey bee colonies, then selecting from the "good" hive should produce results similar to the first experiment - though by chance they may appear better or worse for small sample sizes. This is what we typically see.

So in order to select winners and losers with better results than random chance large sample sizes are necessary.

I quickly recognized that if I were to select based on outcomes, my small number of colonies gave me no better odds of picking true winners than random chance.

A rule of thumb is you need 30 in your test population and 30 in your control population in order to have reasonable confidence in your ability to select which is better. I could dig out the math for that, I think. For medical research, samples are typically much larger. For example, the CDC rejects evidence that treatment A reduces mortality in disease C by 67%, based on the sample size being only 200 persons. One reason they do this is they know that often such results are not repeatable.

The problem with the Bond Method is that your sample size is 1. You aren't comparing large numbers of nominally identical populations against each other. You are comparing some number of individuals against each other. you don't have a test population and a control population, you have (if you start with 100 hives) 100 test populations with a sample size of one - because you are comparing each hive against every other. That isn't backyard science. that is backyard bee butchery.

That is why real science is difficult and expensive, often disappointing and frequently ambiguous in its outcomes. It is hard and usually unrewarding.

I like what Randy Oliver does. He does real experiments, and details in gory detail the difficulties of creating and maintaining adequately controlled conditions, proper samples, and representative controls. His sample sizes are generally marginal, but that is an economic consideration.
 

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"folks want to "make a difference" read save the planet, save the bees, save whatever...
the idea that they are here , eat, poop, and then not here, and have almost Zero impact, does not do the sense of self any happy juju. So we as mere humans engage in "something" to feel we have an impact.
My only impact will be a few birds and squirrels will thank me for the 50,000 trees I have planted.
dreaming can be entertainment, so there is always that."

GG




Ah, yes, that would be it; our legacy we leave behind! You made me go and look up the spelling for "Maslow's Triangle of Needs".

Dreams can be entertaining and empowering, no doubt about that. They can also be somewhat toxic to others who get drawn in as props.
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
Morning @crofter

folks want to "make a difference" read save the planet, save the bees, save whatever...
the idea that they are here , eat, poop, and then not here, and have almost Zero impact, does not do the sense of self any happy juju. So we as mere humans engage in "something" to feel we have an impact.
My only impact will be a few birds and squirrels will thank me for the 50,000 trees I have planted.
dreaming can be entertainment, so there is always that.

GG
I can't resist (please forgive me)

1 The words of the Teacher,[a] son of David, king in Jerusalem:

2 “Meaningless! Meaningless!”
says the Teacher.
“Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless.”
Ecclesiastes 1:1-2

Not a book for young men to read.
 

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looked at the site you kindly offered.
Virgins and breeder queen AI only odd none open mated.
So he does not feel he has a good drone pool perhaps.
the virgins would use the same drones I have in the "Hood" so if they were not up to par how would they do in with a different Virgin, I wonder.

Any one here on BS get a Virgin from Cory Stevens and find when Mated they did not need to treat?


thanks
GG
Before I stopped listening to the said podcast for good, I still captured the Cory Stevents show.

One of the claimed reasons "why virgins" was:
- the buyer would take full advantage of mating the virgin to their local drones - and thus the "superior local genetics" mating the virgin.

Still, I strongly suspect the main reason to market the virgins is - predictability and cheapness of production.
Once you factor out the hassles and costs around the queen mating, it is totally worth to just produce and sell the virgins by a dozen.
In fact, Cory Stevens himself takes the time to explain very well exactly that. :)
That is the real reason IMO.
The "superior local genetics" sounds good and that's about it - a good marketing blip.

Back to the "Simple Four Steps" - do anyone claim to have "superior local genetics" worth mating to?
I feel majority people don't (even if they may feel otherwise).
 

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Back to the "Simple Four Steps" - do anyone claim to have "superior local genetics" worth mating to?
I feel majority people don't (even if they may feel otherwise).
Greg:

Good points to be sure. But if I might press the point a bit, would you concede that the Wilderness Apiary queen you imported did better for you than the stock you were finding in your own locale?

I concede that this approach is not a panacea, but sometimes we can be tempted to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.
 

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Before I stopped listening to the said podcast for good, I still captured the Cory Stevents show.

One of the claimed reasons "why virgins" was:
- the buyer would take full advantage of mating the virgin to their local drones - and thus the "superior local genetics" mating the virgin.

Still, I strongly suspect the main reason to market the virgins is - predictability and cheapness of production.
Once you factor out the hassles and costs around the queen mating, it is totally worth to just produce and sell the virgins by a dozen.
In fact, Cory Stevens himself takes the time to explain very well exactly that. :)
That is the real reason IMO.
The "superior local genetics" sounds good and that's about it - a good marketing blip.

Back to the "Simple Four Steps" - do anyone claim to have "superior local genetics" worth mating to?
I feel majority people don't (even if they may feel otherwise).
no need for mating NUC makes a different price point for sure as well scale

GG
 

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Greg:

Good points to be sure. But if I might press the point a bit, would you concede that the Wilderness Apiary queen you imported did better for you than the stock you were finding in your own locale?

I concede that this approach is not a panacea, but sometimes we can be tempted to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.
Absolutely so - Russ. Yes.

Of course, those genetics were wasted due to the "No Treatments" plan at my location - they could not resist my local circumstances.
Myself - I was not fully aware and educated on the matter yet - too bad, but I wasted good material (believing AND being told at that moment that any special protections was not necessary).

I will always say - this is location dependent.

And so - those Cory Stevens virgins shipped to my location for the local mating will be a total waste.
Same as to most generic locations in the US - because such locations are clearly in majority.
However, people will buy this "superior" virgin queens not fully understanding the own situation.

IF anything, I will only ever buy a fully mated queen to import into my setting (and pay extra).
 

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Absolutely so - Russ. Yes.

Of course, those genetics were wasted due to the "No Treatments" plan at my location - they could not resist my local circumstances.
I will always say - this is location dependent.

And so - those Cory Stevens virgins shipped to my location for the local mating will be a total waste.
Same as to most generic locations in the US - because such locations are clearly in majority.
However, people will buy this "superior" virgin queens not fully understanding the own situation.

IF anything, I will only ever buy a fully mated queen to import into my setting (and pay extra).
So Greg, I'll split 20 virgins cost with you, , sent to @Fusion_power or @Litsinger, or someone else. they mate them in a "better area than we have"
they then send us 6 each, for our start, keeping 3 or 4 for them selves for the effort. 300 ish each for 6 mated VSH queens,, what do you think? 6 puppy mill queens would be 220 or so, not too much more.

it would be to me worth it to see what really happens, to there so called VSH queen in 22.
I would set up a new yards with clean bees for them to have a good go of it.

GG
 

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So Greg, I'll split 20 virgins cost with you, , sent to @Fusion_power or @Litsinger, or someone else. they mate them in a "better area than we have"
they then send us 6 each, for our start, keeping 3 or 4 for them selves for the effort. 300 ish each for 6 mated VSH queens,, what do you think? 6 puppy mill queens would be 220 or so, not too much more.

it would be to me worth it to see what really happens, to there so called VSH queen in 22.
I would set up a new yards with clean bees for them to have a good go of it.

GG
Heck, @Gray Goose, I was asking @gww a couple of years ago now - run a mating yard in his own backyard.
Be a very safe operation; some extra $$ for him; good deal for us
Remember that?
Look it up. :)

OK, here (#32):

It is a good idea and I still think it is a good idea - a public mating yard in a worthwhile location.
NOT my crappy yard, God forbid. :rolleyes:

I actually wanted to take up some virgins to my local VSH guy for mating last year.
Well, the family calendar tramps my beekeeping calendar - so that fell thru.
Takes some disciplined time planning and coordination AND absence of bad luck.
 

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IF anything, I will only ever buy a fully mated queen to import into my setting (and pay extra).
From my very humble vantage point, I think this is a sound idea. Cory discusses this concept in the following video (starting at about the 11:30 mark).

He stresses letting these mated VSH queens produce lots of drones to flood your area. Then even open-mated queens which come from this drone stock are still 100% resistant.

This approach concedes two points:

1. Frequent introduction of mated VSH stock;
2. And allowing these 'imported' queens to produce myriad drones to unleash on the unsuspecting local population.

 

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So Greg, I'll split 20 virgins cost with you, , sent to @Fusion_power or @Litsinger, or someone else. they mate them in a "better area than we have"
I'm game- but as my wife's uncle cautions, "I'm real cheap, but I'm not very good."

For that matter, I have threatened Cory that I'd like to come by and tour his operation. Conducting a little business while there would certainly help grease the skids.
 
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