They all started from bees I got from a fellow who only keeps ferals…so they were resistant.

Well I don't think there are VARROA resistant bees I think you have bees that can keep the mites in check but not a lot.
The only honey bees I ever saw where I live are mine. I think most the problems with bees on my level {hobbist} is VARROA and ya have to learn how to deal with them. Wonder if she will buy more bee off the same fellow I would but I would never think they don't have mites have to watch your mite loads or you will be buying bees every year. Well got to head to my bee yards and do my 2nd treatment with oxalic acid vaporizing my bees are not resistant but maybe one day.
But they are healthy and happy and I got honey.:thumbsup:

 

"...Nope she says. They all started from bees I got from a fellow who only keeps ferals…so they were resistant...."

I find that anyone who is that dead certain about anything concerning bees is in for a rude awaking ...
If they persist long enough and through enough failures.
I find many with that attitude would rather give up beekeeping than admit just how little they know....and usually find some excuse like not enough time or too many farmers with sprayers.
This goes double for those with the superior attitude about "their " particular strain of bees.
It seems that beekeeping is particularly attractive to a certain mindset that are sure with a "fresh " look they can be better beekeepers than you or I and "fix" the decline of bees.

 

attractive to a certain mindset that are sure with a "fresh " look they can be better beekeepers than you or I and "fix" the decline of bees.

Heaven knows we see plenty of that here on Beesource. First year...or second year...beekeepers proclaiming to have all the answers to the challenges that beekeepers have been facing for decades.
Another form of snake oil, I suppose. They've read the preachings of some and concluded, totally on faith, that those sermons are absolute gospel. I guess we often embrace that which we find desirable...regardless of reality.

 

People do a cutout or collect a swarm hanging from a tree limb and automatically assume it is mite resistant. Without having the faintest idea of its origins. Was that cutout colony a result last year’s managed bee swarm? That tree limb swarm from this year’s? How long have they been ‘treatment free’?
Then the swarm/cutout collector refuses to test them for actual mite ‘resistance’…as that somehow goes against their philosophy. But they have no reluctance to sell them to a new (and sometimes embarrassingly experienced) beekeeper with the claim of resistance.
The seller weaves a desireable story…they’ve discovered the holy grail of beekeeping…bees needing no mite treatments….and what beekeeper, new or old, wouldn’t want to believe it?
And how many new beekeepers fall by the wayside after buying a bottle of that snake oil?

 

Resistant!! I can not believe Resistant maybe able to tolerate mites better than average. I have gathered feral colonies that consistently have lower mite counts, but never mite free.

I can recall a time when almost anyone who had a mind to could keep bees successfully. It really took little in the way of management, a lot of hobbyists never even worried about swarm management. In the 70s and 80 life was pretty good for a Beekeeper.
But Those days are long gone. although tracheal mites are not the problem they once where. the Varroa and associated viruses still plague our bees! Management of the mite load is paramount. Weather you consider yourself a natural Beekeeper, Treatment free, or what ever Every Beekeeper must agree that Varroa mites are one problem that bears close scrutiny in every hive. regardless or where they come from

 

Treatment free, or what ever Every Beekeeper must agree that Varroa mites are one problem that bears close scrutiny in every hive. regardless or where they come from

While I agree....sadly, let me assure you that this opinion is not universal.

 

I would say the real problem are not the guillible backyard keepers, but the "guru's" who have turned their pet theories into a marketing scheme. A constant round of lectures and presentations like some revival ministry.

I think those are folks that should be sued for mal-practice.

They tend to whine about academics not taking them seriously, but science is evidence-based and not a religious movement.

 

"guru's" who have turned their pet theories into a marketing scheme. A constant round of lectures and presentations like some revival ministry.

Sometimes the same one's who'll lambast any scientific study and accuse the researchers of dishonesty.....exclaiming 'follow the money'. At the same time promoting their own books or paid speaking.

 

"I guess we often embrace that which we find desirable...regardless of reality."

My observations have led me to believe the above statement is mostly true. I think beekeepers as a majority, tend to band together with like minded beekeepers. We have among us the harsh chemical people that think bombing them is the immediate answer, then there is the soft chemical (using natures own chemicals) to kill them, then there is the change the queen out more often, the answer is small cells, no it's let them make their own cells. no it's ....................

Tending bees is like selecting a doctor. You just shop around until you find someone that has an idea that YOU think sounds better.

In the end, the bees will prevail and so will we.

 

You just shop around until you find someone that has an idea that YOU think sounds better.

Or worse yet...choosing one whose bedside manner you like...ignoring every other red flag that might be waving.

 

Sustainable permaculture is a mainstream movement in the real world.

It's not surprising that it is being applied to beekeeping.

Nor am I surprised that it's advocates are being characterized as being part of 'The Medicine Show'.

However, as more resistant feral colonies are returning to the environment, it is becoming more and more apparent that sustainable beekeeping isn't snake oil, but is in fact happening today.

I think we were fortunate to have 'Gurus' who were advocating for this type of beekeeping because they've already laid down the groundwork for a new type of beekeeping that may one day soon become the norm.

 

There's plenty of science demonstrating that there are in fact Varroa resistant Honeybees being used by beekeepers.

75% VSH and EHB/AHB hybrids in Brazil, for example.

There are also numerous groups of beekeepers who are successfully using resistant stocks of Honeybees.

 

I am so glad that when I started keeping bees, I was just wingin' it! I lived in a rural area, so all the books at the library were from the 50s and 60s , with none of this doom and gloom or self righteous stuff. Of course it promoted TF, before there was such a thing, simply because they didn't have the problems we have nowadays.

I guess I was lucky to have to early success that I did, considering my naiveté... but it also allowed me to develop my ideas based on observations and not what other people were saying.

It's important for people to have gurus but so much of beekeeping is about timing, observation and seasonal locality that there is only so much satellite advice you can take seriously. I think it is also very instrumental in your first few years of beekeeping to not pay for anything, it helps you except losses without feeling like you were really put out.

 

with none of this doom and gloom or self righteous stuff.

I’d like to think that I don’t preach gloom and doom….so I assume you aren’t referring to me. My objection is to those who preach a Pollyanna view to new beekeepers.
You refer to accepting losses. The lady I spoke to at the farmer’s market had been sold a false ‘bill of goods’…and therefore was unprepared to accept any losses. And I find that frustrating as I regularly hear the fallout from such.

 

That's a 'Buyer Beware' issue.

No, all swarms most certainly aren't feral or resistant.

 

So what is the point of this post ?

Are you saying the woman is an idiot ?

The seller was a crook ?

"Mite resistant" does not mean "mite proof".

Do you know for a fact it was mites ?

What can we learn from this post ?

Inquiring minds need to know.

 

So what is the point of this post ?

The point is that there is 'snake oil' being peddled in beekeeping today. If someone told this newcomer that he/she was selling mite resistant bees...and so she needn't be concerned....it was either 'the blind leading the blind' or a dishonest seller.
Do I know for certain it was mites? Nope...but 6 hives all failing in their second season would surely arouse one's suspicion. And the newcomer had been advised that she needn't worry, so she never checked.
I get at least one of these each month....and in the springtime...usually one or more a week.
And I feel bad for the newcomer...and frustrated that there doesn't seem to be any solution.
What can anyone learn from this thread?
A reminder, especially to new beekeepers...in the world of beekeeping...and most other things....if it sounds too good to be true....is probably isn't.
Buyer beware.

 

Take the middle road and be open to your experiences...

 

I'm with you Hazel-Rah We must all keep trying and checking out the opinion of others, and questioning our own knowledge. When we take a "side" we automatically exclude the knowledge of the other side. I have made progress with using feral and selective queen management, my mite counts prove it, but it takes a lot more than picking up a swarm or two to get to that point. It takes work, observation, and documentation to make any serious progress.

 

There is "snake oil" being sold to beekeepers of all types.

 

So with this new "snake oil" treatment...does it matter what kind of snakes I use?
Do I put it in the feeder or just brush it on the bee?
Is it any better than powdered sugar? (sorry, I couldn't resist...)

 

So with this new "snake oil" treatment...does it matter what kind of snakes I use?

Step one...you must squeeze all of the oil out of them...doesn't matter what kind as long as they're venomous. After you've done that....let me know and I'll give you step two.

 

In all fairness the problem just might be she did not ask you to tell her more about how you keep bees. There was no, after the first two died I did;;;, after the next died I did, Finally i tried;;; and that did not work either.
Are there plenty of dreamkeepers with bees? yes. do they flock to the new age keepers? yes. But that really says alot less about the alternate keepers than the dreamkeepers.
Often the recollection of a conversation between two people has more to do with their wishes and beleifs before the conversation than what was actually said.
Not saying your point is not valid, just that often the problem is not the advise given; it is the advise heard.

 

In all fairness the problem just might be she did not ask you to tell her more about how you keep bees.

The truth is she didn't ask....and I didn't offer. The conversation went pretty much as I reported...no advice asked, none given.

 

So who are these snake oil peddlers?

Can we have some names?

 

So who are these snake oil peddlers?

I suppose that if you've read through the thread and nobody comes to your mind...you are probably living in a snake oil peddelerless world.
Lucky you.

 

You will find free range snakes are much better. All natural.

 

Higher oil content as well.

 

Every time I try to squeeze this thing it starts to rattle...should I cut that rattling thing off first?
:lpf:

 

beemandan,
I feel I owe you an apology for hijacking your post for a little cheap humor.
I hope I didn't offend.

AND I hope nobody takes the idea of squeezing venomous snakes seriously...this is all in fun.

 

beemandan,
I feel I owe you an apology for hijacking your post for a little cheap humor.

No apology needed. Humor, cheap or otherwise, is a welcome ingredient in most dialogs.
PS I think them rattling thingy's have the most oil of all....but you need both hands to squeeze 'em properly.

 

Thanks,
Guess I'm just not doing this right. I'll have to let go of his head to squeeze that rattlin thingy...
Maybe I should just contact one of them snake oil salesman and buy some oil already squeezed...
I wonder if I have enough money...???

 

Thanks,
buy some oil already squeezed...

I found this fine fellow under one my "TF" test hives. Perhaps I have solved the mite issue.

 

Well I've been helping folks get started in bees since the '70s and I can tell which ones will almost certainly get out of beekeeping:90% of what they say starts with "...yeah,I know..."
Makes no difference if I'm helping catch a swarm or hive a package or do a cutout if they have that attitude while I'm trying to help then they give one excuse or the other but they soon move to another hobby.
We all see them here coming up with "suggestions" or "how about this..."when they have no grasp of the basic functions of nature or weather. Not that innovation isn't good but its like the monkey typing Shakespeare : not likely.

 

I can tell which ones will almost certainly get out of beekeeping:90% of what they say starts with "...yeah,I know...".

And there are always those. And yet I find myself pleasantly surprised at the number of new beekeepers who show a genuine interest in understanding the whole of it. It may not be the great majority but they are a good number.

 

As far as "snake oil salesmen" go yes there are some that seem to participate here mainly to generate visits to a blog or a web site that sells something but they are few.
What the newcomers fail to hear or to grasp is the incredible mind boggling complexity of beekeeping
The lady in question may very well had mite PROOF bees but those genetics were immediatly diluted at the first swarm or supercedure .
The various schools of thought such as treatment free or the "Bond" method all have pluses - and minuses .
Treatment free works - IF you have good genetics and are skilled enough to keep them and practice brood breaks and all the other manipulations most can't or won't do
They same can be said for the Treatment school. It works if one is rigid about dosage timing and has a little luck with not harming ones queen.Both are more a reflection of the skill determination and to some degree the "luck" of the beekeeper as much as the methodology.
THAT'S what the dreamers don't see.
There are also a few old geezers like me here that love bees and really enjoy being able to contribute.
And there are a VERY few really skilled selfless keepers like Cleo Hogan that speak to the heart of a question ( and don't ramble like me )

 

And there are a VERY few really skilled selfless keepers like Cleo Hogan that speak to the heart of a question ( and don't ramble like me )

Not only is Cleo a fount of wisdom, but he is unfailingly a gentleman, in the old-fashioned sense of the word.

 

One of the vociferous "Bond" advocates on this forum has 10-11 years experience. He lost his apiary twice (attributed in his words to climate mal-adaptation). A couple of years ago he went "feral" and in two years of "Bond" treatment moved to 90-95% (winter) survival.

Nice story, but the "feral" bees had 25 years of unmanipulated "bond" challenge, and still had major die-off, when moved into a managed yard. Miraculously in two years, the genetics which were suseptible in the wild converted into miracle survivor bees that don't need a "Bond" test cause they refuse to die.

I don't buy this. I don't buy "miraculous" winter survival --- only to be followed by radical spring spliting and make-up. My hives afflicted with DWV despite my best efforts don't die in the winter, but dwindle in June, going broodless and finally succumbing, as the lethal component seems to be loss of queen fecundity. Admittedly, my climate is mild to semi-tropical. However, I think a lot of the hot-air some of these blowhards are puffing up about is carefully parsed to avoid revealing the full story.

 

One of the vociferous "Bond" advocates on this forum has 10-11 years experience. He lost his apiary twice (attributed in his words to climate mal-adaptation). A couple of years ago he went "feral" and in two years of "Bond" treatment moved to 90-95% (winter) survival.

Nice story,

Yeah, but not the real story.

In my experience, misrepresenting your opponents is a quick way to say something stupid and lose an argument.

 

>At the same time promoting their own books or paid speaking.

hmmm... if you think ANYONE is making money speaking about beekeeping you are mistaken. I can make more in two hours working my "day job" than I can make in a whole weekend of speaking, and I have a lot of other things I need to be doing...

...and I'm sure it's the same for anyone one else out there speaking.

I'm not sure if the "book" thing is addressed to me, but I tell everyone to read it for free on my website. They just don't listen. I also tell them to stop buying queens and raise their own queens, stop buying foundation, stop buying pollen substitute, stop buying treatments. What snake oil do you think we are selling?

The treatment manufacturers, and the bee suppliers on the other hand, continue to sell Apistan (that has not worked for well over a decade) and Checkmite (that has not worked for a decade) and many other unnecessary and counterproductive things. Despite that fact that the rest of the world other than US, UK and Canada have OUTLAWED the use of terramycin because it is NOT effective at clearing up AFB and have OUTLAWED the use of Fumidil because it causes birth defects and despite recent research that proves that Fumidil makes bees susceptible to Nosema and terramycin makes bees susceptible to AFB and EFB, these products continue to be sold.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0033188

If that is not snake oil, then I don't know what you mean by snake oil. Snake oil by definition involves a profit selling something that at best, simply does not work and at worst makes the very thing it is intended to help get worse.

 

Michael,
Riddle me this: I teach loads of folks to make swarm traps to catch "feral" bees in my county. A huge percentage of them announce they are going to go "8-frame, foundationless, Treatment free" because of the teachings they pour over on the internet. (A smaller percentage, are "top-bar" enthusiasts (largely because they don't want to spend money).

They move these swarms into their backyards. They thrive for a year. The second year the hives are manifestly afflicted with Varroa/DWV. I tell them to treat, they refuse, and the hives die.

I get so tired of advocates of TF refusing to recognize the nearly universal loss of novice bees. I attribute this to the "never treat" advice, as the students that go MAQS or OA have bees the 3rd year, and can begin making increase.

 

So assuming these bees are surviving their first year... why aren't these 2nd bees getting split once, twice, or into 4 nuc hives? Honestly, if they let the bees raise their own queen the bees will build how many qcells on the first split? At least two of those should take... Now you have 3 hives and it's... May? June? Assuming you live somewhere there is a June/July flow, you could split from your overwintered queen again in late July or you could buy a couple VSH queens, jeez... you could split just one frame from all 3 hives. Now it's August and you could have as many as 6 hives...