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Raw Honey; What Is It, Really?

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26K views 168 replies 22 participants last post by  RAlex  
#1 ·
I know how to make "raw" honey.
But, what is the real difference between honey that is produced with no heat and honey that is heated warm enough to strain(140F)?

People who ask me for "raw" honey say that there is something lost when honey is warmed to at or above 100F. What is it that is lost?

I put a label on my comb honey containers that says,"The Only Truely Raw Honey".

Thanks for your ideas.
mwb
 
P
#2 ·
We do not heat our honey to strain it, with the exception of the spout coming out of the extractor when it gets plugged from too cold of honey, then we use a hair dryer to get it going again. Perhaps the only truly pure honey is in the comb! We sell our honey as pure raw honey that has not been filtered or heated. Not an expert here by any means but have read and heard that enzymes and flavor are lost when heating honey.
 
L
#4 ·
IMHO, honey is raw if it has not been heated or filtered. Heating above 110 degrees (F) destroys some enzymes. Enzymes aid digestion. Roger Morse wrote (somewhere) about this and why enzymes are important.

I have a huge demand for raw honey. I primarily get it from draining uncappings (I am not so large I need to use a spinner), but also get several hundred pounds a year from drainings from cut comb. I sell all the raw honey I get at a 25% premium to the standard extracted honey price.

This year I had a customer ask me to put cappings into my raw honey, a la Really Raw honey. I complied and also offered the product to a local coop, for a 50% premium to the standard extracted price! Sold a couple of hundred pounds.

Hope this helps,

Lloyd
 
#5 ·
>I know how to make "raw" honey.
But, what is the real difference between honey that is produced with no heat and honey that is heated warm enough to strain(140F)?

The taste is significantly different.

>People who ask me for "raw" honey say that there is something lost when honey is warmed to at or above 100F. What is it that is lost?

Flavor, among other things. Enzymes break down under heat. Chemically we know that hydroxymethylfurfural increases when heating honey. In Europe this appears to be the standard test for freshness and "rawness".

http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/honey_quality.htm
http://www.nhb.org/foodtech/tgloss.html


http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/EnzThem.html
 
#6 ·
When I first saw "raw" honey it was what was coming right out of the extracter. When I saw it, I thought, "Dirty whte honey. Why would anyone want that."

Now, as I have heard here and seen when people put up honey for "Really Raw", not only is this product what comes from the extractor, but people add more cappings. Amazing.

Where did this idea come from?
Certainly a beekeeper didn't put up what 20 or fewer years ago we wouldn't let out of our honey houses. Before anyone gets all wound up by my description, think about it. You couldn't create this sort of product again. Could you? A demand for something else similarly "processed"?

Was the creation of "raw" honey consumer driven. Was it just a matter of one individual saying to another that in a book somewhere they read that some enzymes were lost when honey is heated and they didn't want that as part of their diet?

How much is lost? Is it a measureable amount? Do consumers of "raw" honey cook with it? If so, aren't they defeating the purpose?

How hard does this product get? Too hard to dig out of a jar with a spoon? Then what does the consumer do? Heat it?

Thanks,
 
K
#9 ·
>Of course the consumer is looking for unstrained and unheated....<

When you all say "unstrained" what do you really mean? Do you not run the extracted honey through a filter or strainer of any kind before bottling? I run mine thru a fine-mesh nylon material to take out the big pieces of wax, bee parts, etc. Does this take out some of the "good stuff" that I brag about when I sell my "pure raw honey"?
 
W
#10 ·
I recently had a frend show me her jar of Raw Honey. It was loaded with particulates floating in it. It really perplexed me since simply settling my honey got all that stuff out.

She's an "organic consumer" and nothing I could tell her of how I never filter or heat could convince her that mine was just as raw.

I think it is like buying shrimp with heads-on. The sales man told me that it was to assure me of the quality. I told him that I don't eat the heads and would trust him on the quality. I didn't seeing paying the pound price for heads when I could have gotten all tails. No deal...

Back to this Raw Honey, i don't know how they do it. i couldn't get that much wax to stay in my honey. But to do it on purpose just to prove it to be unprocessed? that seems like further processing to me.
 
D
#11 ·
> I will never understand why people want to try and gouge roughly crystalized honey and wax out of jar and eat it.

There is a small population of Russians living in Anchorage. Awhile back one of them drove by my house and saw my ‘Raw Honey’ sign. Most of my honey in buckets is now crystallized. I told the lady I’d have to warm it slightly so it could be bottled. She didn’t want it that way and asked if she could just buy it crystallized. Who am I to argue? Later some of her friends came by after finding out I have crystallized honey available. None of them wanted liquid honey.

Better yet, I have some darker honey that is significantly honeydew honey. Most people around here don’t like it as it is stronger flavored. When I let the Russian lady try some, she asked me “Why didn’t you tell me before that you had that kind of honey?! I haven’t tasted honey like that since I was in Russia.” Now that’s what she wants to buy.

In some instances, I'd guess itÂ’s what peopleÂ’s taste buds were trained to early on.
 
#12 ·
The whole concept of "Raw" honey is... marketing.

Everyone wants to differentiate their product,
and someone got the bright idea that defects
in their honey (as compared to honey-show entry
style honey) could be marketed as "more natural"
to the granola-and-Birkenstock set.

I don't know about you, but if it is 90 degrees
outside, I'm going to guess that the supers on
my hives are going to get warmer than that, so
claiming that my honey was never warmer than
any particular temperature would be lying.

Honey exposed to heat does have higher HMF
levels, but no one ever bothers to promote
"low HMF honey", even though this would be
an objective and measurable metric, proof
that the honey was never "overheated".

As far as people who don't filter their honey
(or, worse yet, ADD crap like cappings fragments
and propolis to create a "more natural looking"
product, these people are either "lazy", "con
artists", or "marketing geniuses", depending
upon who you talk to. At best, these people
are filling a niche market, one that I address
with "chunk" honey, where a slice of cut comb
is placed in a jar filled with (filtered)
liquid honey.

I think I'm being just a bit "smarter" than the
purveyors of honey with "crud" in it, as the
customer who wants honey, pollen, and propolis
can buy them all in one bottle for $6 from one
of these "Raw Honey" people, or they can buy
each in a separate bottle from me, for $6 +
$2 + $4 = $12. (The solution to the equation
for determining which of us has maximized his
marginal revenue versus cost of sales and cost
of goods sold is left to the student.)
 
W
#13 ·
"Granola-and-birkenstock set"
Thanks, Jim. That was the term I was looking for. I've got friends who are "granola's" and freinds who wear birkenstocks, but it is definately a different group who tries to marry the two types...


And I can remember when the preppies started dressing grung. and grung boutiques began to open up.

Waya
 
#14 ·
waya brother, How ya been? Long time no see.

One guy i know who puts up really raw honey uses a Dakota Gunnis uncapper and a 36 frame extractor.

The cappings from the DG travel down a shoot to the sump tank.

The honey and cappings from the extractor go into the sump tank.

The honey and cappings are pumped into a 55 gallon drum with an agitaitor from a milk bulk tank sitting in it to keep the mix mixed.

A pump that comes from an automatic filler pumps the mix through the filler into prelabeled jars.

After the jars sit a while, they are turned upside down to check for wire or nails.

When those are found, they are fished out. I wonder about the pieces that aren't found.

There is a quality control system, so that a single jar can be traced back to the packer.

That's one guy that I know.

Keep up your standards. Try to inform your friend that she won't have to pick her teeth clean of propolis. There must be some of that in there too.
 
H
#15 ·
In our area of NC, "raw honey" is honey straight from the extractor, wax, bee parts, and anything that goes through the drain spout. The honey and "stuff" is botteled straight from the extractor, no strainer, no filter, no heat. I supply it only on special request and at $2 a quart extra. My extra work and time is worth something. I will not display it until the customer picks it up, the bee parts turn most customers off, it is an "under the counter" item.
 
#16 ·
HaRight, as in HAR DEE HAR HAR?
It is interesting that in this age, something that takes less time and effort, and has things in it that most people wouldn't want in their honey, claims the best price.

Is there anything else that would be comparable? Like maybe unclean, unrefined rice?

Could we create another such product?
 
W
#17 ·
Well, Mark
(I'm on vacation
Image

there's the example I gave regarding shrimp, and then there is the farmers' markets with under processed produce selling at a premium price. Seems like anything that can be conveyed as making a product premium results in a higher price. A good thing most of the time, but I think it is a system that can be abused by the unscrupulous on the uninformed. I'm not sure that adding things to my honey, or homogenizing things in it (for lack of a better phrase) to make it appear less processed is a reputable way to qualify it as Raw. Not wanting to split the hairs on "all honey is processed", those methods seem like processing to me.

Now HAR mentions simply bottling the whole lot and that to me comes the closest to Raw. but I would have to bottle immediately if I don't want those things floating out to the top. And I don't see settling over night as a "process." so how to educate the berkenstocks that they Are getting a Raw honey that is simply less trashy than they expect?

Waya (who'll be around a bit longer until heading south for Deer hunting and then heading deep for backpacking... the only perk to working as a Seasonal Park Ranger is those long vacations in the winter)
 
#18 ·
Elevated temperatures denature proteins. The higher the temperature, the faster the process. For those folks who believe that consuming honey from local sources bestows a degree of allergic immunity, the denaturing of those proteins in the pollens will reduce or elimintate the effect.

Since I believe that there is some truth in that anti-allergenic effect....does that make me a member of 'Granola-and-birkenstock set'?

[ January 17, 2006, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: beemandan ]
 
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#19 ·
> Since I believe that there is some truth in
> that anti-allergenic effect...

That puts you in agreement with some very
experienced allergists, who suggest this
approach often. People ask me about this,
and I tell them I'm not a doctor, but that
it certainly can't hurt to try, and honey
is cheaper than any medication you'd care
to name.

> does that make me a member of
> 'Granola-and-birkenstock set'?

No, you have to look at your feet, and look
what's on the table for breakfast.
 
S
#21 ·
So what is the difference between straining and filtering?

??My honey is raw, but I filter it through a strainer, or I strain it through a filter???

Or is filtering an added pressure forced process whereas straining is a gravity forced process?

Most of the people that buy honey from me want honey, not bee parts. Myself included. Little furry legs and thoraxes on my toast just don't do it for me. But any reasonable special requests are accomodated...I'll add wax or comb if you want, just don't ask me to add bee legs.

Rick (who is one of the granola-and-new balance-set)

[ January 17, 2006, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: ScadsOBees ]
 
S
#22 ·
So what is the difference between straining and filtering?

??My honey is raw, but I filter it through a strainer, or I strain it through a filter???

Or is filtering an added pressure forced process whereas straining is a gravity forced process?

Most of the people that buy honey from me want honey, not bee parts. Myself included. Little furry legs and thoraxes on my toast just don't do it for me.

Rick (who is one of the granola-and-new balance-set)
 
#23 ·
Letting it run through a screen would be straining, IMO. Running it through a fine filter would be filtering. The point is that filtering is fine enough to remove the pollen and bits of wax and such. Straining is not. I suppose someone should define what micron is the break point, but it's just a general concept.
 
W
#24 ·
I think Rick and Michael are on to something. I've always distinguished filtering and straining by what I was using: if I was using a filter, I said I was filtering, if I was using a strainer, I figured I was straining.... But I can't tell you what makes a filter or a strainer. I do know that some aquarium filters don't filter out particles, but filter out chemicals...

Now for another one, when I'm using the colendar, amd I colendaring? and If I'm using a veggie strainer, am I straining In the veggies, since they are left behind and the water and dirt washed away??

My head is spinning
Waya
 
#25 ·
> So what is the difference between straining and filtering?

Marketing Hype!

"Filtering" sounds "too technological", and gives
the impression that there might be something "bad"
that needs to be taken out of the honey, or, worse
yet, gives the impression that something of value
has been removed in the process, while "straining"
somehow does not give that impression to the
unsophisticated customer.

I'm rather proud of my 3-stage filtering scheme,
as it does not slow down production one bit, and
keeps junk out of the settling tank. But I don't
try and make my production techniques a selling
point for my honey, as no one really cares.

People care about "local" food, and will pay
a premium for it. People care about quality,
and will pay a premium for it. People care
about cleanliness, and demand it. But when you
start adding empty adjectives to your labels,
you start down the road of being a con-man,
willing to say things that are nothing but
empty puffery. You'd do better to start
entering honey shows, and brag about how your
honey is "award winning honey". It works so
well for wine, that there seem to be hundreds
of such competitions.
 
S
#26 ·
Actually, for me it is more about having a correct answer if somebody who does happen to care asks if it is filtered or not.
It has only happened once or twice, but I'd rather be able to say
"Yes, it is raw but I do strain it"
rather than
"Uh, well, I guess I do run it through some kind of filter, I'm not sure what that is considered"...

I like a happy medium between the granola-and-birkenstock set and the lysol-and-marshall field's set
Image
 
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