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Is it OK to lightly mist larvae before/during queen cell grafting?

3K views 29 replies 14 participants last post by  Saltybee 
#1 ·
Yesterday I grafted 96 larvae for queens. As usual, I placed wet towels over the frame immediately after pulling the frame from the colony. But this time, I was in a hurry, and did not wring out the towels. I noticed that some of the cells on the frame with larvae had a tiny bit of water in them [my towel probably dripped some water into some of the cells].

Amazing thing is, it was the easiest time ever for grafting. Incredibly easier to graft.

But now I am concerned that maybe it was not a good idea. I was thinking that a little extra water may have altered the content of the royal jelly and now the queens may not be so nice.

On the other hand, if a little bit of water does not affect the larvae, I was thinking it sure would be nice to lightly mist the larvae before grafting...

My million dollar question:

Is it OK to lightly mist larvae before/during queen cell grafting?

Does anyone here mist your larvae before grafting?

Thank you,

Soar
 
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#5 ·
Me too.

The only offering I can make (from someone who's rubbish at grafting) is that when I first starting enquiring into grafting techniques, I found that many folks were grafting 'dry'; some pre-loaded the cells with a small dollop of RJ 'as it comes'; some used 50/50 RJ diluted with water, and one or two guys even diluted the RJ with 'runny honey'.

Now on the assumption that diluted RJ still produces an acceptable success rate, it would appear that the presence of some additional water from light misting - which will no doubt be removed, anyway - isn't a contra-indication. (And might even help the larvae from drying-out.)

A meagre offering to the question, I know ...
LJ
 
#19 ·
Knisely,

I have left the grafting frames undisturbed since grafting day. Later today I plan on checking to see how many sealed queen cells we have of the 96 larvae grafted. I will do my best to post pics of the results.

Last, I will do my best to post results after the queens emerge, mate, and begin laying.

Thanks again everyone for your excellent input!

Soar
 
#10 ·
I haven't tried it, but my feeling is it probably didn't hurt. Personally my method is this:

Get or make a starter box (swarm box):
https://www.betterbee.com/queen-rearing-supplies/SB1.asp

Soak two large sponges and put them on the bottom. Go through any strong hives looking for combs of nectar (uncapped preferred), pollen and mixed nectar and pollen. Put four frames that equal about equal parts pollen and nectar in the starter. You can just put two or three in at first and then shake in nurse bees until it's overflowing. Now fill it out to four frames. Put on the cover. Look for the right age larvae to graft. Put the frame in the starter for 30-60 minutes. Come back and get the larvae. They will now be flooded with royal jelly. Better than water. Now you can graft. After you graft, put the grafts in the starter. My queen cell frames are 3/4" thick so I can put two frames in. I leave this at least 24 hours in the shade. If the weather is not hot, I leave them another 24 hours. Then I put them in the finisher.
 
#13 ·
I haven't tried it, but my feeling is it probably didn't hurt. Personally my method is this:

Get or make a starter box (swarm box):
https://www.betterbee.com/queen-rearing-supplies/SB1.asp

Soak two large sponges and put them on the bottom. Go through any strong hives looking for combs of nectar (uncapped preferred), pollen and mixed nectar and pollen. Put four frames that equal about equal parts pollen and nectar in the starter. You can just put two or three in at first and then shake in nurse bees until it's overflowing. Now fill it out to four frames. Put on the cover. Look for the right age larvae to graft. Put the frame in the starter for 30-60 minutes. Come back and get the larvae. They will now be flooded with royal jelly. Better than water. Now you can graft. After you graft, put the grafts in the starter. My queen cell frames are 3/4" thick so I can put two frames in. I leave this at least 24 hours in the shade. If the weather is not hot, I leave them another 24 hours. Then I put them in the finisher.
Thanks for the timing. I've been tempted to do this, but was thinking it would need to be left much longer than that.
 
#14 ·
Only reason i'd be concerned with this is the temperature shock. Something so small as a larvae even a small mist drop could change its temperature drastically. theoretically if the water was Goldilocks temperature that matched the brood nest it would be fine.
 
#15 ·
I never leave the ungrafted larvae over an hour or they tend to get too much royal jelly and that sometimes makes it harder to graft. I never leave the grafted queen cells more than 48 hours and if it's hot never more then 24 hours. And the swarm box is always in the shade. It would be better in the basement, but once I had one that was leaking bees and the residents of my home protested...
 
#17 ·
I always do a similar thing, but instead of a swarm box, I simply use the cell builder/finisher. I place the frame that I'm going to graft from in overnight (approximately 8 hours). I believe that this serves two purposes, gets the nurse bees producing and laying down RJ, and makes grafting much easier. I use the JZ-BZ grafting tool, and the extra RJ really helps.
 
#21 ·
It must have been 4 or 5 years ago I saw it. Wasn't much of a technique, they were not worried if they got extras (too old or eggs). Pump-up garden sprayer with low pressure and a cookie tray to catch runoff is the way I would imitate method. They were not trying to keep the larva from being underwater either. Pretty basic and pretty crude. Definitely not first timers at it.

It did not pop up in Google for me.
 
#22 ·
Pulled the first two frames where I grafted 30 larvae. It appears as if 28 took.

These two frames where placed up top of the queen cell builder, no pollen frames next to them [my experiment].

The bottom 4 frames each are next to frames loaded big time with pollen. I hope to pull those frames tomorrow.

Placed these 28/30 sealed queen cells in the incubator this evening....ran out of time so couldn't do the super nice ones yet!

They look ok to me...

How do they look to you?

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#25 ·
We will be pulling the next 60+ sealed queen cells this afternoon. These frames were placed immediately next to large frames filled with pollen. I am excited to see if there is much of a difference!

I will do my best to post pics of these new cells later today.

Good first run.
Assume you want feedback for the next run. Looks like there was somewhat of a feed issue. Younger bees ? Longer prime time? Fewer grafts? I say that because your best cells are on the top middle bars.
Where do you see an improvement opportunity.
Feed issue? Hmmmmm....Could you elaborate?

There were frames full of pollen in the box below this box, but not adjacent to these cells.

Also, we fed 1.5 gallons of 1-1 sugar syrup during the 5 day process of sealing the cells...

Is there anything else we could have done?

And may I ask, why do you suspect a feeding issue?
 
#24 ·
Good first run.
Assume you want feedback for the next run. Looks like there was somewhat of a feed issue. Younger bees ? Longer prime time? Fewer grafts? I say that because your best cells are on the top middle bars.
Where do you see an improvement opportunity.
 
#26 ·
I mean no offense. Frankly they look better than mine when I gave up on grafting after mag and light and breaking down cell walls to get at larva, I was still making worst queens than I had been able to before.

There are some of the cells on the bottom bar that are smaller. That can be from many causes. Just a preference of the bees, maybe a little difference in the age. Maybe a few too many cells. Maybe the trick of moving shaken brood frames up to get only young bees would help as well. Feeding days before grafting receives good reports, not something I did as I only got that step clear in my head until I was no longer grafting.

The best descriptions to my vote are those by Joseph and David Laferney?. If someone does not help find, or you do not already have, I will try to dig them up when I get the chance.

I have no doubt yours will continue to look better each time. Again, if your brave enough to ask, be ready.
 
#29 ·
Well, was able to dig into only two more queen cell builder frames this evening. I still have a number left. I did graft 96 larvae.

Frame on the left was placed on the second deep, with massive pollen frames surrounding it. It appears to have 13/16 cells drawn and sealed.

The frame on the right was another frame from the top deep that had no pollen at all next to it. It appears to have 11/16 cells drawn and sealed.

All cells have royal jelly [looked carefully in the hole].

I am not much worried about the size because I know I crammed as many nurse bees as possible in three deeps and they were all fed well the entire time and besides that, we have a substantial ******** eucalyptus flow at the moment.

I grafted all larvae from my very best queen. She was laying entire frames of eggs in January and overwintered better than any colony I have ever had.

I took eggs from her twice this season: In March and in April. The March grafting turned out to be a 19/20 success rate. April was nearly as good.

What I like most about her daughters is that they are all appear to be black Carniolians, lay like crazy, super super gentle, and bring in the honey and pollen better that any other colony.

I am planning on requeening every colony we have with her daughters.

Please let me know if anyone has any other suggestions.

Thanks,

Soar

Here's a pic of those two frames from this evening...

I will do my best to post pics of the final frames from tomorrow and also some pics of her daughters that are mated and laying like machine-gunners...

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