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Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

21K views 153 replies 27 participants last post by  A Novice 
#1 ·
The COMB project colocates 12 hives, 4 each in a "Conventional", "Organic Acid" and "Chemical Free" management strategy, at the apiaries of participating beekeepers.

The COMB project's researcher Dr. Robyn Underwood has posted a (rather skeletal) update.

The key sentences: " Varroa mites were well controlled in CON and ORG colonies. They were much higher, beginning in late summer, in the CF colonies."

"The overwintering losses in CON and ORG colonies were easily made up by splitting. Some CF colonies were able to be split, but there were not enough colonies made to completely make up for losses."
" Going into the winter of 2019-2020, we have 218 colonies; 42 CF, 87 CON, and 89 ORG. We’re hoping for great survival!"

In the fall of 2018 all colonies in the project were requeened with "feral, TF survivors" from a colony cut out of a house soffit in Jim Thorpe, PA. I find it important to note that these new queens swarmed prodigiously in 2019. "Despite our best efforts, only 11 PA colonies did not swarm. That means that only about 10% of the colonies made it through the season without a brood break."

My comment: Feral bees have "reverted" to wild type, and swarm at the drop of a hat. This confers "fitness", swarming making up for the huge losses suffered by mite-ridden bees. It, however, complicates domestic management.


Full progress report at: https://lopezuribelab.com/2019/11/2...4Gl7XrF1OvvaRJIS4BN703tpmp4Vxj2ah-g2Vz2cq297g
 
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#3 ·
Interesting. Four hives is a rather small number to do a competent study with. I wonder what a more competent beekeeper could have done to prevent swarming. Old methods from the pre WWI days when bees where less Italian and more German might be usefull.

Crazy Roland
 
#4 ·
Noting that Roland is older than dirt if he remembers beekeeping from before 1914.

Beekeepers exploited swarms to the maximum back then often doubling or tripling colony counts in a good year. This was the time period when swarm control methods were developed with Demaree and others publishing methods to prevent or manage swarming.

I wonder if Walt Wright's comb management methods would have helped? I expect they could have benefited from obtaining queens that were known to have mite resistance instead of starting with commercial queens that definitely do not.

A colony that swarms repeatedly and excessively will have low mite counts. Prevent that colony from swarming and you will usually get a very high mite count by fall.
 
#6 ·
I expect they could have benefited from obtaining queens that were known to have mite resistance instead of starting with commercial queens that definitely do not.
All hives in all treatments were requeened with queens produced by Devon Paderewski from a breeder queen in Jim Thorpe, PA in July and August, 2018. The breeder origin were wild bees in a house soffit for 4 years, removed and kept treatment free for 3 years. In a 7 year history, these bees have likely requeened multiple times, and hence are "feral". The apiary producing the queens advertises itself as treatment free (and its scale is backyard).

The queens conform to the current "talking point" in the TF religion that bees must be "local and feral" in origin. I think that is nonsense, but the origin of the queens did not affect the Conventional and Organic survival, only huge mortality in the "Chemical Free".

I maintain the differential survival of the "talking point" origin bees points to the utter vacuity of the "local and feral" obsession.
 
#25 ·
All hives in all treatments were requeened with queens produced by Devon Paderewski from a breeder queen in Jim Thorpe, PA in July and August, 2018. The breeder origin were wild bees in a house soffit for 4 years, removed and kept treatment free for 3 years. In a 7 year history, these bees have likely requeened multiple times, and hence are "feral".
It is right here this experiment goes on wrong tracks. Free mated bees are kept 4 years and again free mated in a hobby beekeepers yard...


As Margarita Lopez-U says on Twitter "these bees are not varroa resistant"

I´m not saying that there are better TF bees in US, but for sure, I have been in the belief that there should be.



P.S.

VSH trait is not recessive. It is additive, F1 has half of what parents did. Lots of miss leading discussion about recessive traits in varroa resistance. If the major factors in varroa resistance would be recessive, nobody could have had any progress so far. 100% VSH bees have been bred many times in Europe, and now in Havaji too, not a single mite making offspring.
 
#5 ·
The study makes replicates of 4 hives (in each of the 3 managements) at many, many locations. So the total hive count is about 90 in each management, (though current survival is only 42 in the Treatment Free cohort).

We don't know (and likely won't until publication) how much variation there is among the locations. The study recruited among experienced beekeepers already running one of the three managements, and we don't know if prior experience influences the survival (and likely will need to wait for publication).

Any "n" number greater than 30 (per treatment). will yield good statistical confidence.
 
#7 ·
current "talking point" in the TF religion that bees must be "local and feral" in origin
IMO, this is not relevant. Bees may exhibit a range of mite resistance traits. Brood breaks are one of the traits. Swarming repetitively creates brood breaks. The two most effective mite resistance traits are VSH and mite mauling combined with allogrooming. I see no reason to expect that a colony that swarms repeatedly will do anything other than produce offspring that swarms repetitively.
 
#8 ·
No, my memory does not extend back to pre WWI, our records date back to at least the late 1930s. We departed from Demaree to our present brood management system. I highly doubt that Walt's methods come close to what we can accomplish by moving brood around. We track our queens and hive population levels and see no significant level of swarming..

Crazy, and not quite old as dirt, Roland
 
#12 ·
Then HE would be older than dirt.
I'm 60 which is getting on up there a bit, but not good enough to go back to the early 1900's.

beemandan, I'll challenge you the other way. What do you think are the most important mite resistance traits? You don't even need citations, just a good well educated opinion.
 
#14 ·
beemandan, I'll challenge you the other way. What do you think are the most important mite resistance traits? You don't even need citations, just a good well educated opinion.
The one thing I can say with confidence is that the vsh trait doesn’t confer ‘treatment free’ ability. There is a place for vsh but it doesn’t alone suppress mite reproduction sufficiently to keep colonies from collapse…in my experience.
In fact, if you think about it, vsh is a biologically expensive varroa reducing trait. By the time the behavior is triggered the colony has already invested all of the resources to produce a worker bee and then the pupa is typically tossed out the door. If the mite population is allowed to grow unchecked….as it will….the vsh behavior can actually speed up the demise of the colony.
If there were a combination of treatment free traits….and I said ‘if’….their behaviors would have to be triggered developmentally much earlier than the vsh trait.
In my limited experience any of the actual mite suppressing traits are recessive and only exist in highly inbred bees.
All….just my opinion.
Also…at age 69…there are days I feel like I’m 35 and others that I’m older than dirt.
 
#13 ·
LOL FP, I expected better from a man of science like yourself. ;)

You cannot make a claim, then demand anyone else has to prove / disprove it. It is over to the person making the claim, to prove it.

I am sure, deep down, you know that. :rolleyes:
 
#15 ·
Szabo's bees of 8 years ago would show fierce allogrooming and cell uncapping when mite counts were up. Still I had one new colony that started to dwindle till I got over the idea of not needing treatment for first year nucs:rolleyes: They also were totally not interested in robbing. This behavior in itself may help colonies keep mite counts down. I had a very easy time controlling mites but I was also very isolated from other bees, kept or feral so no prediction of how they would fare in tougher exposure conditions.

I dont give them much opportunity to show how resistant they could be if I weren't keeping the hammer on the mites!
 
#16 ·
Thank you beemandan. I agree with you that the biological cost of VSH is very high. My experience with high VSH bees is that they never build up to a strong enough colony to make a good crop of honey. It is a trait that can be used, but it is just one of the traits needed. You did not mention allogrooming and mite mauling. IME, these are far more useful traits because the adult bees directly attack the mites.

Alastair, beemandan and I have gone at this before. I might agree with you re precedence, but we have a more civil discussion if beemandan puts his cards on the table.
 
#18 ·
Thank you beemandan. I agree with you that the biological cost of VSH is very high. My experience with high VSH bees is that they never build up to a strong enough colony to make a good crop of honey
When I ran my paired TF vs. Treated experiment (I stopped in frustration in 2018), I used VSH F1 queens from a VP Queens II VSH breeder. I think VP Queens is about as pure, direct from Baton Rouge, as can be commercially purchased.

My experience with VSH on the coast of California is they got mites and died just like any other bee.
 
#19 ·
I find it important to note that these new queens swarmed prodigiously in 2019. "Despite our best efforts, only 11 PA colonies did not swarm. That means that only about 10% of the colonies made it through the season without a brood break."

My comment: Feral bees have "reverted" to wild type, and swarm at the drop of a hat. This confers "fitness", swarming making up for the huge losses suffered by mite-ridden bees. It, however, complicates domestic management.
I am wondering how the results will change over the next year when the genetics from the "feral, TF survivors" queens get "watered" down due to swarming and new queens mating with the "random" drones already in the test apiaries. I suspect the CF hives will start dwindling down even worse.

I am also wondering what the mite counts and treatment regiments for all of the other hives in the area of these test hives are. I suspect this will have a drastic affect on the outcome of the experiment.

I am also thinking they have to many different variables in this study. Looking at the management systems table in addition to changing treatments, they are also changing comb size, bottom board type, winter cover type, and winter feeding method. For a good experiment you should limit/only change one variable at a time.
 
#20 · (Edited)
The test apiaries are colocated with pre-existing private apiaries, and the participants are drawn from the three treatment groups. Until the results are published (and perhaps not even then) we likely will not know if the participants dominant management mode affected the test hives located with their apiary.

I've heard a lot of criticism of the "mixed variable" issue. I believe the investigator is interested in testing the "best practices" for each group as specified in roundtable meetings by the participants. I do know Penn State went to great lengths to accomodate every demand to the "Chemical Free" group. (Why 4.9 foundationless was used in those hives, and why the "local feral" queens were given to all participating colonies.). At one point the reason for the "canvas covers" was explained, but I cannot recall that now.

I worry about "mite bombs" spreading from the 4 CF hives into the other hives in the replication groups, and obscuring the effect of managing the mites in those hives. Of course, in typical "Up is Down" TF denialism, they claim it is because chemically treated hives "cannot resist" mites, it is the chemical hives fault the CF hives got mites.

You can guess that if the investigators had not accommodated the Chemical Free "experts", we would be hearing criticism "the hives died cause you didn't use local feral survivors" "You didn't use small cell comb", etc etc.


I posted this the Facebook group I admin, and a "treatment free partisan" said the "Hives died because the commercial packages contaminated the colonies, (even after 12 full months)".


What I find is the "TF partisans" always have a ready excuse to deny that TF bees die because of TF management, despite volumes of evidence that is precisely what happens.
 
#21 ·
I worry about "mite bombs" spreading from the 4 CF hives into the other hives in the replication groups, and obscuring the effect of managing the mites in those hives.
Should not be a worry if the treating beekeepers are any good. They should anticipate and factor into their treatment schedule, just like i do when I get a truckload of dinks not worth putting on manuka dumped right next to me. Just got to have enough treatment in the hives to catch any invaders before they do any damage.
 
#23 ·
What I find is the "TF partisans" always have a ready excuse to deny that TF bees die because of TF management, despite volumes of evidence that is precisely what happens.
It is more accurate to say that bees heavily infested with mites die. Period. Bees that are consistently treated will live but never develop mite resistance. Mite bombs still destroy too many colonies and that includes bees that otherwise are capable of keeping mites under control. Arbitrarily picking some bees and saying they are feral and therefore good bees to keep treatment free is just as bad IMO as getting a bunch of commercial packages in early spring and refusing to treat them on the false hope they will somehow survive. That said, it is far more likely that feral bees will have mite tolerance traits.

beemandan, whatever I state has to be in context of what I personally have experienced. My experience is that mite resistant bees are a very real option if a beekeeper is willing to put in the time to get good queens. Remember that Weaver only had 9 survivors out of 1000 colonies when they first decided to go treatment free.

Alastair, I did not answer the question because it is very simple for anyone to search the internet for relevant documents. beemandan is just as capable of digging them out as I am. I have posted them before. Look up the work done by Kefuss, Arista, Harbo, and others. You will also find an abundance of research showing that mite treatments ultimately fail as the mites become resistant. At some predictable point in the future, we will have to rely on mite resistant bees. The only caveat is that organic acids seem to attack mites in a way that will not be easy to overcome.

Here is one that is worth a few minutes to read. It covers almost all of the mite resistance traits identified so far. https://aristabeeresearch.org/varroa-resistance/
 
#24 ·
Bees that are consistently treated will live but never develop mite resistance.
This statement irritates me. Bees are outcrossing and "homogenize" very, very quickly. This is the "sine qua non" of their success as a species. Marla Spivak has studied this process and published papers on the rapid "extinction" of her Minn Hygenic traits in outyard apiairies.

In order to maintain recessive traits in an obligatory outcrossing species, one has to maintain a very high culling level **ad infinitum**. The "popular" story is, "I killed thousands of hives, and now the survivors are resistant". This not how genetics works, you have to kill hives year after year, long into the infinite future.

Kirk Webster claims a version of the popular story, but the nearby observers tell a different one. He continues to have periodic devastating crashes. That is what genetics predicts, and that is what (appears) to be happening on the ground when the "Triumphalism" is stripped away.
 
#30 ·
That is an incorrect reading of a question that was actually addressed to JWChestnut. South African beekeepers had very little choice. Instead of continually propping up their bees with mite treatments, they let nature take its course. There is an excellent doctoral thesis written about this sequence of events. Within a few years, the bees remaining were all mite resistant. Nobody treats for mites in South Africa. I grant that mite resistant traits are less prevalent in European bees, but the traits are there and untreated populations have developed in a few cases, Primorsky bees being a good example. The consistent reason we do not all have mite resistant bees is because beekeepers continue to treat their bees propagating mite susceptible bees in massive numbers. I realize this is a dinged if you do dinged if you don't situation, but in the end, we can choose to address the problem or we can continue to use prophylaxis. You are either part of the solution, or you are the problem. If I took JWChestnut's position, I would be treating my bees right now.

Those who say it can't be done should get out of the way of those who are doing it.
 
#31 ·
The "triumphalism" of beating mites in South Africa by a "Bond let die" approach is not borne out by more recent surveys in South Africa.

The 2009-11 survey (done years after the Allsop claim that mites were not an issue) show that Varroa mite was cited as the cause of loss very frequently, second only to SHB, in about 30% of the respondents cases. (and loss rates were high).

Text Font Line Number Parallel


I think it is clear that there is pure magical thinking or outright fraud in the "triumphalist" claims of so-called TF successes. The claims in South Africa don't stand up to scrutiny.

We should note that AFB has emerged as a devastating threat in the Cape Province in the last few years, as well.

Cite: A survey of managed honey bee colony losses in the Republic of South Africa -2009 to 2011Christian W W Pirk1*, Hannelie Human1, Robin M Crewe1 and Dennis vanEngelsdor

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...09_to_2011/links/5405bdf30cf23d9765a72ca8.pdf
 
#33 ·
MSL, Shh, he has a drum to beat.

Strauss et al. (2013) also confirmed the presence of varroa mites in migratory and non-migratory colonies, but they were not implicated as being causative factors for the loss of honey bee colonies.
I won't quote more of the article, but will note that chalkbrood and Capensis takeover were highly rated reasons for colony loss. The problems with hive beetles were primarily attributed to colonies that absconded, then hive beetles destroyed the combs. One item JWC did not address is that they asked what diseases were treated which only got a response from 2 beekeepers. Would you care to speculate that beekeepers in SA do not treat for diseases including varroa?
 
#34 ·
MSL, Shh, he has a drum to beat.
well I agree on most of what he posts, just think he triped him self up here.. it happens, to all of us.
I agree with his position, Internet TF is a crock.
Either you take the "loses" threw hive death, pinching and re queening with select stock, or you live in an area where the feral do it for you and you befit from that pool's losses

let them die and split what lives is a dead end belief system that after decades has not produced results (vs grafting and re queening sub par stock )
true kefuss bond can and has worked, but thats propagating the top 2% left alive and requeening the bottom. When his son took over and let up on the selection pressure the stock tanked, 70% losses ensued, and treatments were needed, and still are

Alive doesn't = breeding stock
at 50% loses and a normal bell curve, 68% of what lives is the same as 68% of what dies, so if you propagate them, you get no better(well in theroy 14% better per year, but that takes 100% heradory on the trait, drone control etc) then what died
not to mention 40% of the splits(walk aways) will have drone fathers that had no effect on the hive trates muck you up, fast

in nature 80% of the queens that overwinter are culled and don't see the next spring (based on seeley 2017 numbers), that is what it take in nature to hold steady... the loss of 78% of your splits.... improvement will take a higher loss rate
in nature the swarm queens are layed by the queen and not chosen by the workers elimating the criptic effect https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0199124
I suggest the TF "split" culture and"easy beekeeping" has been a mad grab for member ship, which has osterize those who could actually intact change.


I am no friend to the TF BS preached by many, that doesn't mean I don't see genetic resistance as the future, it is ! No other choice, history has shown this.
but that doesn't mean we flush scientific method down the tubes
the long and short here is we know what it takes to move a trait in bees, have so for decades if not centuries
 
#35 ·
Did you ever feel like you were running a race with a ball and chain tied to your leg? That is effectively what bees are doing so long as we continue to prop up susceptible genetics. Extreme polyandrous mating guarantees a queen will carry huge levels of genetic diversity, but also means that alleles with low prevalence in the population will only come to the forefront when something takes the rest of the genetics out of the mating pool. What happens when the entire mating pool is composed of mite resistant bees?

MSL, the sad thing is that you can see where we need to go, but it does not sound like you are actively trying to get there.
 
#36 ·
When the main reason for existing of near 90% of the colonies in the US is mass pollination; perhaps the present bee characteristics and supply system is filling the need. That system has a huge momentum. That type of bee is not at all what the small or stationary beekeeper needs but trying to overcome those genetics with the result of isolated breeding experiments is a bit like pithing against the wind. Bees breeding habits work against us.

Many people are wringing their hands about it but until they come up with a doable method of derailing the mass production bees I dont think it will happen.

I have seen this discussion come up quite a few times and when confronted with how it reasonably might be accomplished, we seem to come up empty. I think that manipulating and reprogramming peoples motivations may be a different skill set than bee breeding.;)

Maybe we need another Edward Bernays!

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._of_the_Consumer_Mind_The_Century_of_the_Self
 
#37 · (Edited)
Extreme polyandrous mating guarantees a queen will carry huge levels of genetic diversity, but also means that alleles with low prevalence in the population will only come to the forefront when something takes the rest of the genetics out of the mating poo
bingo, if people would pinch 80%+of the survived queens and replace them with better ones we could weed out the week and improve Resistance with improved queens, and more importantly improved drones . My suggestion is "death" has not proved strong enough negative pressure, too many "poor" drones for the "lucky" remain, even in the TF pool (standard bell curve stuff)

MSL, the sad thing is that you can see where we need to go, but it does not sound like you are actively trying to get there.
what makes you say that? I am just asking the TF message to meet reailty 1/2 way... that same message I give the OAV "vape heads" and there 20 tx a year "success"

the death cult model used by some to predict stock improvement from losses and splits would also predict stock improvement from treated loses and splits at the scale they are taking(40+%), but neither move forward with splits
. and yes I use JWC's language for this "death cult" misinformation . I don't mean TF, I don't mean true bond were you clear a path for further selection and propagation. I mean the split what lives.
long and short of it is TF or TX there are those who can see what needs to be done, and those that don't.... the problem is no one wants to pay $$

cards on the table...
a true TF breeder queen, A queen that's offspring could rival the 5% mite loses of SA, would be worth $2-4K maybe more, sell 200 of them .
...
I would buy her now, graft 10,000 cells sell them at $10 each and change the world and make a 100X return :lpf:
sell me that queen with a garenteen on performance and your argument ends, sell those 200 to people like me and we have changed the US bee genetics.
but
Such a (EHB) bee dose not exist. And will not even come close till people are wiling to pay a premium for those queens

something takes the rest of the genetics out of the mating pool
my response is simple, it maters not what dies, it matters not what lives it maters what takes its place.

yes crofter is right, we need a culture shift.
Its time to rethink the issue
We know from the late 1800s Italian craze what it takes to shift a stock. Requening every year or 2 with "pure" for many years.
Start of the 1860s langstroth was selling queens for $20 ($620 in todays money!!!), 20 years later the trade papers were full of adds for "dollar queens" (about $25).

At the moment resistant queens don't fetch a premium price, indicating that the market doesn't value them, and their lies the problem.
My area Nucs are all ready preselling at $195+ and Packages $140

The hobiest market, rather then demanding a bee more suited to thier needs( and getting it!) Is grabing up what ever is available, now, before there is none left.

no incentive for producers to change. And the TF message of "do it your self" stops people from supporting those who have resistant genetics for sale.....

The 1st and foremost step to enacting change is BYBK's keeping there bees alive and overwintering a spare nuc per hive in case they or some one near them loses one.
Once there is not a desperate yearly rush to import replacements, people will be willing to be picky, and demand better queens, and or be willing to wait till later in the season for better/local queens to be available.
then you can start to shift an areas genetics, and as the DNA work on the Arnot forest bees shows, you don't have to have a massive aria to set up a genetic island... a town/city/county would work.
The problem as aways is distribution of improved genetics(it maters not what dies, it matters not what lives it maters what takes its place. ). I feel that 48 hour cells are a good choice and am working to that end
Yes I am out there working for change, about this time last year I realized no progress was ever going to happen on a forum
So I turned my sites locally, pushing for change with my club
Teaching, writing a biweekly queen rearing column fro the club news letter and proofing some nontraditional methods that are suited to the BYBK at a club level.

Sadly I found out I wasn't a big enough producer to qualified for the SARE grant app I had been working on, so the grand scheme has been throttled back to a personalty funded club level test run for this year
The gole of witch is to develop a culture/market of using 48/ripe cells/virgins along with increasing the number of self made cells
Once there is a market and I am pumping 100 or so in to the local club at maby $5 a piece for 48s the purchase of a II breeder becomes a reality.
once that happens its far easer to market to other clubs, selling 48s by the bar for them to take home, finish, and distribute to thier members. at an up charge of course... they buy the 48s for $5, member get the cells for $10 or so... $$ makes the world go round... and member get cheap queens that will throw pure trait drones. Now rotate the breeder queen traits yearly (VSH,MBB, Russtian, etc) This is how you take back the DCAs, one club at a time.
Easy peizy to graft 3 bars on Friday night and have 40+ 48 hour cells ready for pick up on Sunday afternoon. With an 8 week season that's 320 cells X $5 = $1600, and that's just one person with one strong hive. Imagine one or 2 people like this per club!

I suggest the problem in most areas is NOT the big commercial operations, Its the BYBK! its the little guy. I truly feel the finger is being pointed in the wrong direction. WE as beekeepers are at fault, not "them"

WE can take back many/most of our DCAs, WE are just choosing not to.
It just takes the understanding that for most of us, we can buy much better bees then we can select for given our small size, and we need to do that on a semi regulator basis till an areas traits are shifted and the drone stock has been improved. Then as a group select high performance local queens as breeders
WE can do this cheaply and easy with 48s, so we should.
but that sounds like work and beekeeping.... something that the " TF Gurus" and "OAVape Heads" push back against in an attempt to gain membership

Middle ground,elbow grease, future that is
 
#39 · (Edited)
bingo, if people would pinch 80%+of the survived queens and replace them with better ones.......
How exactly do you select the 80% of the survivors to be pinched (which ones are the "better ones")?

Mite counts?
Well, John Kefuss indicated that the mite counts are not a sole, reliable parameter to base your decisions on (the ultimate survival still is).

IF I ONLY have two promising survivor queens, how exactly do I implement the proposed 80% elimination out of the two?

No, I am not going to run hundreds and hundreds of hives and nucs.
20 units - absolute practical max during the high season.
:)
 
#38 ·
Crazy as this may sound, it is my belief that mites are the effect, and not the cause of our problems. Pesticides cause our bees to bee stressed, and mites with the associated viruses are the effect. Like Pneumonia, they are a secondary infection. People do not get pneumonia and die, they are weakened and pneumonia finishes them off.

We had the fortune of acquiring a significant quantity of drawn comb that was not laden with pesticides The results where staggering. The scale hive on dead out comb made 12 lbs surplus. Many of the hives on clean comb made 12 lbs surplus, with no spotty brood.


Crazy Roland
 
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