Title says it all. Thanks to JWPalmer for suggesting this in a round about way in another thread.
Title says it all. Thanks to JWPalmer for suggesting this in a round about way in another thread.
Did you intentionally leave out "intelligent"* from the thread title?
*(as in "... intelligent life ...")
USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft
My opinion is yes. With all of the billions of stars and probably hundreds of millions of planetary systems (I don't know what the latest estimates of numbers are) it would be difficult to imagine that the only life is on Earth. Earth may have the only life in our solar system but even that won't be answered for many years. If there is life somewhere in the Universe outside our own star system humans will probably never find it due to the distances involved unless faster-than-light transportation is developed. That is a whole other topic.
I am trying to avoid controversial subject after the recent "state of the United States" thread but oh way the hell....
My opinion is no, probably going to get hammered here. Problems of having a classical education.
I would start with a few things but first, "The Fermi Paradox." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox). Enrico Fermi was an American Physicist who developed the first nuclear reactor, won the 1938 Nobel Price for Physics (although where I live, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a Nobel Prize winner) and is referred to as the Father of Nuclear Age. During a casual lunch at Los Alamos in the Summer of 1950, the discussion came up about a slew of recent UFO reports and if there was alien life. Fermis comments, although not exact, were "Where is everybody?" The long and short of it is that while there are billions of stars in the Galaxy, and the probability is that a few may have earth like structures hence the thought that "life" may exist. However, to develop into an intelligent begins to decrease the probabilities which is then referred to as the "Filters." Out of the planets that might support life, how many can develop to the stage of , lets say, bacteria? Dinosaurs? Walk upright? The the filter begin to include things like the planet being destroyed by a meteorite or a solar flare? How about pandemics or war? All of these consideration further reduce the possibility of get to a primitive space program and then being able to figure out near light speed, then being able to withstand the radiation of open space and the time to travel from one universe to another. Unlikely-if so, where are they?
Realize that you, as a species and a being are very fragile, very lucky and extremely special. Thank God.
with some of the posts on the web,I'm sure they are already here.
mike syracuse ny
Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan
I think some of the searchers are barking up the wrong tree. Let's take SETI as an example. They are looking for radio waves. I don't think advanced civilizations will be using that technology. We are in the process of developing quantum communications ourselves. If you consider that we have only been using radio for a little over 100 years then we probably wont be pumping our the waves for much longer. So let's say a civilization uses radio waves for about 300 years then you would have to find a civilization in that time period, and you are looking at the right patch of stars, and their signals haven't degrading too much over the enormous distances.
More advanced civilizations are probably not interested in communicating with us but might be interested in studying us.
Well jonsl, my belief is that intelligent life DOES exist outside of our little planet Earth. To think that out of the entire universe, our planet was the only one to develop supposedly intelligent life would be the height of human arrogance. Whether said life has visited Earth in the past is a different and much more intriguing question. I think there are plenty of unexplained ancient mysteries that hint at either aliens or an earlier advanced civilization. Ask any pilot what he or she sees when looking at the Nazca lines. Can anybody give me a good reason why the designs on the Nazca plain can only be viewed from several thousand feet AGL?
I actually lean towards the idea that perhaps mankind has destroyed itself once before. That we might do it again is a fear not without merit.
Disclaimer, I did read "Chariots of the Gods" when I was growing up.
Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.
i think we're going to find that life, not necessarily intelligent life, is the rule not the exception. Given the billions of stars/planets there's probably any number of civilizations out there.
I read that book too
Mr. Palmer, I enjoy your posts and have appreciated your advice so hopefully I won't offend you with a reply.
"The secret is, is that there is no secret" Buddhist meditation point. Almost all civilizations were able to develop a level of astro-observation and the fixation of what is out there has been with man longer than fire. Almost all of the of the early societies developed some sort of astronomical and mathematical sciences. This did not happen overnight but rather on a generational scale based upon observations handed down through the development of these sciences. One could consider the Nazca lines or I would think Stonehenge would be an easier example. Some guy didn't wake up one morning and say lets drag some rocks over here 20 miles away in a way that would line up with the solstices. I would suggest through years of observation and planning, knowledge pasted down through generations and further developed technologies to quarry, move and place stones. The Nazca Lines are built on simple geometric calculations-they found the blank canvas in the Nazca Desert and were created between 01BC and 700 BC. relatively late in developed civilization time scales. The can be figure to be laid out from counted foot steps along with simple straight line sighting. They in fact lack the exacting nature or symmetry of Stonehenge (2000 BC) which lacks the grace and elegance of the Greek societies of 1200-1500 BC that contributed greatly to mathematics, physics and the arts. Further, the Chinese societies developed with the Xia Dynasty around 5000 BC also developed sciences and math. (Pretty much while my ancestors were living in the dark in caves). Read "Guns, Germs and Steel; the Fate of Human Societies" (Diamond 1996) if you get a chance.
At this point, I am not that arrogant to say there is no intelligent life anywhere-I just don't know. Our culture has way too much science fiction that people want to believe in for less than scientific reason. It mathematical. If there are a trillion galaxies and say 10% are capable of supporting carbon based life. Then on 10% (which I view as a large sampling) of those have water form on the surface (hydrogen and oxygen are very light gasses and a specific gravitational pull is necessary to hold an atmosphere), the necessary elements and energy are in the right place at the right time and then 10% of them are able to form single cell organisms, 10% to multi-cell, 10% able to photosynthesize, 10% form complex plants, etc etc. Were not even forming invertebrates yet and you get to zero pretty quick. How hard to stand upright and then get to interstellar space flight?
Accept that you are special, fragile and by the grace of God unique. This is the only planet we have, do your best to protect it.
There are multiple things that lead me to believe this.
Humans (and most life on earth) are made of some of the most common elements in the universe. We are made of carbon, water, and other common elements. If we were made out of something not common in the universe, my opinion would be different, but we are made out of common stuff. In the billions of planets in the universe, odds are that some number (greater than 1 by a decent margin) would contain the right combination of elements, and the right environment to generate life.
There is no reason that Tardigrade would have evolved to be almost indestructible (they can survive at high radiation, high pressure and vacuum, high and low temperatures). If these things were unique to earth and evolved here they probably would not have all of these survival characteristics.
I suspect any aliens that visit earth are smart enough not to interact with us. There are many instances of populations being introduced to a new person (1700 explorers) to a society introducing diseases that they have no immunity to. Imagine the diseases that aliens on/from another planet could contract/bring with them and how bad the outcome would be. We already try to limit the living matter that we send to mars, and I image any space traveling species would do something similar.
I am not sure if there are any species that can travel long distances thru space, but there are probably other intelligent life forms out there. For every intelligent life form there are probably many that planets filled with simple life (bacteria) that have not evolved to an intelligent state yet.
3 Hives, Started in 2017, Learning as I go
My data logger
We need definitions to imagine with.
Are we limiting the possibilities by assuming that a body is required to support a consciousness. Is self consciousness even an essential part of what constitutes life.
Do yeast cells and other fungi constitute life as we are imagining here or would an organism such as a paramecium fill the definition. How about crystal growth? How close are we to artificial intelligence with inanimate materials?
The topic didn't mention "intelligent" life so anything goes here.
In fact, listen to the entire ten episodes because they are entertaining, well researched, and thought provoking. By the time you get to the last episode you will realize that none of us are really alive as all of this is simply a computer simulation being run by some advanced civilization (or maybe just one highly intelligent person). Strongly recommend the podcast if you interested in this type of topic.
good topic Jon
I am in the yes camp.
mathematically with billions of stars it stands to reason that there is likely a few planets that can support life.
Why have they not come here, 2 things come to mind the first "for what" If you can space travel then I do not see what Earth would have that is not 100s of light years closer to their home planet than here. we are at the end of an arm of the milky way
Second they have space travel , so we are behind and do not really offer much in the line of technology.
Unless we would be "food" it is not likely we see any visitors.
And to add In My Humble opinion we are planted here. Maybe I have watched Space Aliens too long.
If we think out long term, so a few million to many million years, we will eventually come to realize this planet has a "lifetime"
the Sun will in time burn out "100s of million years" perhaps but at some star date our sun is dark. So at some point we either go out and colonize a few other planets or burn up into dust.
The Sun as it dies will enlarge and have a yet to come huge increase is size and temperature,this planet will burn , then freeze to absolute zero.
So it then in the continuum of time ,,it stands to reason that other planets are at the dead , or dieing sun stage. And they would have been in the same place many years ago, today and in the future.
IMO the classic battles fought by the greek gods were the fight to decide who and what is done here prior to leaving this place alone for the "recommended" time say 300,000 years or something. who is to say "chariots of fire" were not small ships going to and from the main ships to the surface.
ok then back to the reality of work
Last edited by Gray Goose; 08-03-2020 at 06:29 AM.