Oxalic acid is harmless - I don't bother removing honey supers any longer. - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid is harmless - I don't bother removing honey supers any longer.

    Here's what I found about Formic Acid:


    Formic acid is readily metabolized and eliminated by the body. Nonetheless, it has specific toxic effects; the formic acid and formaldehyde produced as metabolites of methanol are responsible for the optic nerve damage, causing blindness, seen in methanol poisoning.[47] Some chronic effects of formic acid exposure have been documented. Some experiments on bacterial species have demonstrated it to be a mutagen.[48] Chronic exposure in humans may cause kidney damage.[48] Another possible effect of chronic exposure is development of a skin allergy that manifests upon re-exposure to the chemical.

    Of 16 persons
    who swallowed 45 to 200 g formic acid, 9 died as a result of perforation in the gastrointestinal tract and 5 of acute kidney failure (BUA 1991).


    Reference: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...%202.5%20hours.


    Oxalic acid:

    In humans, ingested oxalic acid has an oral LDLo (lowest published lethal dose) of 600 mg/kg.[46] It has been reported that the lethal oral dose is 15 to 30 grams.[47]

    Oxalate may enter cells where it is known to cause mitochondrial dysfunction.[48]

    The toxicity of oxalic acid is due to kidney failure caused by precipitation of solid calcium oxalate,[49] the main component of calcium kidney stones. Oxalic acid can also cause joint pain by formation of similar precipitates in the joints. Ingestion of ethylene glycol results in oxalic acid as a metabolite which can also cause acute kidney failure.


    Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid
    ------------------------------

    For oxalic acid, the formation of kidney stones require a daily dose upwards of 200mg/day or so, which if far in excess of anything we could encounter in the apiary. Moreover, this must be a chronic intake, happening over periods of weeks to months.

    ---------------------

    Based on the general logic of contaminants in honey. Seems to me that neither Formic nor Oxalic acid should be used with honey supers present, if one wishes to avoid contaminating honey for customers.
    Last edited by username00101; 07-13-2020 at 09:33 AM.

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  3. #42
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid is harmless - I don't bother removing honey supers any longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by username00101 View Post
    This subject is too controversial for my taste. I almost feel guilty eating my OA honey mixed with a bowl of almond spinach salad, and a side of rhubarb pie.
    OK, think of sugar.
    Most anyone will tell now days - refined sugar is "white death", especially if abused, which is common.
    Now that same unrefined sugar as a part of fruit and vegetable is a different story.
    This is because the natural sugars come within a complex of other intake materials and nutrition.

    So why keep equating 1/8 spoon of white, refined powder to a bowl of spinach?
    These things are not equal, even though trivializing this equality is easy enough.

    Unrefined, natural foods <> sum of their known ingredients.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  4. #43
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid is harmless - I don't bother removing honey supers any longer.

    To Greg's point
    Spinach contains about .97g/100g OA, But it also has 0.90g of calcium
    The OA binds with the calcium in to calcium oxalate, witch is insoluble so most of it passes threw the digestive track.

    That gritty feeling you get on your teeth from fresh spinach or rhubarb is the calcium oxalate precipitating out of solution and sticking to your teeth.
    "oh well, let us stick to science. let them have their beliefs and intuitions!" -Medhat Nasr

  5. #44
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid is harmless - I don't bother removing honey supers any longer.

    I do not get around to treating my bees a couple of times a year now if it would just kill the blank SHB's.

    There is a BIG difference in breathing OA vs eating a little.


    To make this a relative discussion I think that you need to look at the dosage and the number of times that you vap OA a year to get an estimate of just how much OA settles in the hives and on the comb.

    Then you need to look if the honey comb is sealed or open and the total area that the OA can settle on inside the hive. Do the crystals settle same rate horizontally as vertically. Are the crystals more prone to stick to the wood or the wax or open cells. How about into the open cells in the deeps if not capped with brood?

    If open there there is a chance to get some OA in the honey if sealed you cut the cap off and there is a good chance you do not get
    much of the capped OA residue into the honey.

    So the bottom line is just how much OA actually gets into the honey? There is a lot of variables.



    JW- Know what you mean with the farm North of Austin I use the Colorado river for my water and use the filter then, chlorine pellets, a mixer then dechlorination filter, then I use a UV light system.

    Jim

  6. #45
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid is harmless - I don't bother removing honey supers any longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    To Greg's point
    Spinach contains about .97g/100g OA, But it also has 0.90g of calcium
    The OA binds with the calcium in to calcium oxalate, witch is insoluble so most of it passes threw the digestive track.

    That gritty feeling you get on your teeth from fresh spinach or rhubarb is the calcium oxalate precipitating out of solution and sticking to your teeth.
    Yep.
    Exactly.

    Here is a good read:
    the relationship between oxalate in our diets, the oxalate in our bodies, and the formation of oxalate stones is far from linear.
    https://www.thepaleomom.com/oxalate-sensitivity-real/
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  7. #46
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid is harmless - I don't bother removing honey supers any longer.

    Robert
    Stirring the pot 00101? Ever check the half-life of OA and the difficulties quantifying it in honey? Formic acid?
    There are actually a few studies out there in internet land that have been brought up in previous threads. Randy oliver is doing one now also. OA is not fat salable and does not stay in wax and most studies so far have shown that honey in treated hives does not test higher than what is naturally occurring in honey untreated. This topic has been discussed many times. The science and the law and whether they are the same has been part of those previous threads as well.
    Cheers
    gww

    Ps, I do remember reading (I think on Wikipedia) that eating 11 lbs of rhubarb might kill you.
    zone 5b

  8. #47
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    Default

    For strictly personal use, I'd be comfortable with formic, oxalic, or thymol with supers on. A dose of any of those chemicals large enough to be harmful would taste so bad that it would be a real challenge to swallow it. If you have taste buds you don't need to do any calculations or speculations to determine if you're below the safety threshold.

    (Breathing them or getting them in your eye is another story, but taking supers off doesn't really help with that.)

    That being said, I've only actually used formic when supers are on, which is approved. That plus a spring and fall treatment with Apivar has been working for me so I don't feel like buying a vaporizer or learning how to use other treatments.

  9. #48
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid is harmless - I don't bother removing honey supers any longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Holcombe View Post
    Stirring the pot 00101? Ever check the half-life of OA and the difficulties quantifying it in honey? Formic acid?
    Just another troll, and it got the reaction the troll was looking for.

    Please folks, stop feeding the trolls. Site has gone downhill tremendously over the last few years, if you feed the trolls it'll become useless.

  10. #49
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid is harmless - I don't bother removing honey supers any longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by grozzie2 View Post
    Just another troll, and it got the reaction the troll was looking for.

    Please folks, stop feeding the trolls. Site has gone downhill tremendously over the last few years, if you feed the trolls it'll become useless.
    character attacks are fairy common when people feel threatened, insulted, or offended by things they don't like.

    I was not anticipating a reaction. I was sharing my anecdote, with a prov-active title which wasn't the best. The community clearly disapproves of my actions.

    It's OK, I already asked for the thread to be taken down because this community doesn't appreciate the post.

  11. #50
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid is harmless - I don't bother removing honey supers any longer.

    It doesn't appear that you are getting much support for your public position: not the first time you have made a run at it. You are correct about the aggregate opinion of the community.
    Frank

  12. #51
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid is harmless - I don't bother removing honey supers any longer.

    not to put fuel on a fire.....

    the "community" at one time thought the world was flat.
    at one time the community burned witches at the stake.

    another phrase for "community" is mob rule, pure democracy, etc.

    00101, take an informed approach and do not worry about the community, the community in places are looting and burning, the community in not always correct.

    thank you for sharing your experience.

    GG

  13. #52
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid is harmless - I don't bother removing honey supers any longer.

    I think the thread has been interesting, and can understand the different perspectives here. I don't think anyone's trolling.

    To be clear, I don't think folks should be using unapproved treatments on honey for sale. That's not a decision for you to make for other people. And I totally understand that some people don't find the risk acceptable even for personal use. That is not a crazy position at all.

    I also don't think it's any kind of EPA conspiracy. They're a bunch of reasonable and fairly smart people doing their job. If anything the problem is that (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong on this) a company gets monopolistic privileges to sell a chemical like amitraz once they push it through the bureaucracy, but anyone can sell oxalic so companies have no incentive to try to expand its legal applicability. I don't understand the laws well, but it seems like that does affect the incentives. That's why you see non-profits like Randy Oliver pushing on improved oxalic treatments.

    I do think it's an interesting question how concerned we should be about ingesting these "natural" treatments. At present I'm on the more unconcerned side, but I can imagine information being presented in this thread or elsewhere that will change my mind.

  14. #53
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid is harmless - I don't bother removing honey supers any longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by cfalls View Post
    I think the thread has been interesting, and can understand the different perspectives here. I don't think anyone's trolling.

    To be clear, I don't think folks should be using unapproved treatments on honey for sale. That's not a decision for you to make for other people. And I totally understand that some people don't find the risk acceptable even for personal use. That is not a crazy position at all.

    I also don't think it's any kind of EPA conspiracy. They're a bunch of reasonable and fairly smart people doing their job. If anything the problem is that (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong on this) a company gets monopolistic privileges to sell a chemical like amitraz once they push it through the bureaucracy, but anyone can sell oxalic so companies have no incentive to try to expand its legal applicability. I don't understand the laws well, but it seems like that does affect the incentives. That's why you see non-profits like Randy Oliver pushing on improved oxalic treatments.

    I do think it's an interesting question how concerned we should be about ingesting these "natural" treatments. At present I'm on the more unconcerned side, but I can imagine information being presented in this thread or elsewhere that will change my mind.
    good response cfalls, having the ability to make our own decisions is still part of the American way.

  15. #54
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid is harmless - I don't bother removing honey supers any longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    not to put fuel on a fire.....

    the "community" at one time thought the world was flat.
    at one time the community burned witches at the stake.

    another phrase for "community" is mob rule, pure democracy, etc.

    00101, take an informed approach and do not worry about the community, the community in places are looting and burning, the community in not always correct.

    thank you for sharing your experience.

    GG
    +1

    Until doing direct and proved harm to others, I would not worry about the "community" indeed.
    The original proposal was just an opinion; a view point, not a community threat by far.
    Heck, I get kicked routinely for my opinions too for just the opposite ways.

    Being a kid, I also routinely sucked on the butts of red forest ants, cause it was a cool thing to do.
    They are very acidic, those ant butts; it kinda burns your tung a little too; but it is also pleasantly tart taste.
    Or you can lick a grass stem, then rile up the ants with it, then lick the stem again - it is tart with the formic acid.
    These are the true facts.


    Meanwhile:
    Public Executions were a party day for medieval folks. Bunring at the stake was bad enough, but it was an occasion for apprentices to take time off, merchants to shut their shops, and fast food sellers to hawk their goods. Burning was very popular. ............
    In this picture, note the young men sitting with their legs dangling — enjoying the show. Often authorities ordered platforms built so everyone could see the show. It’s a wonder someone didn’t think to sell tickets......
    So this is a good example of the community thing, taken from:
    https://www.quora.com/What-was-socia...rrifying-today
    Last edited by GregV; 07-13-2020 at 12:57 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  16. #55
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid is harmless - I don't bother removing honey supers any longer.

    I know OA seems new to most. But from what I understand it has been used in Asia and Europe since the late 70s and early 80s as a mite treatment. Since it has been in use for about 40 years in other countries does anyone know if beekeepers and their customers in other countries are recording deaths from OA?

  17. #56
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid is harmless - I don't bother removing honey supers any longer.

    When bees store honey or sugar syrup in the brood nest, don't they, at other times move it up into supers to make room to lay? Not trying to stir anything, just thought I had read/heard this at one point causing me to wonder the benefit of taking off the supers and putting them back on later.

  18. #57
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid is harmless - I don't bother removing honey supers any longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by MJC417 View Post
    I know OA seems new to most. But from what I understand it has been used in Asia and Europe since the late 70s and early 80s as a mite treatment. Since it has been in use for about 40 years in other countries does anyone know if beekeepers and their customers in other countries are recording deaths from OA?
    6.3. Legalisation of the use of oxalic acid as a drug in bees

    Research on oxalic acid has been conducted for beekeepers, but its use as a drug in honey
    bee colonies is strongly regulated by legislation. Without formal approval the treatment remains illegal.

    In all EU countries, government approval is only given to a new veterinary drug after the European Unionís Agency for Evaluating Medical Products (EMEA) has determined the maximum residue limit (MRL) of the active ingredient allowed in the final food product according to Council Regulation (EEC) 2377/ 90 (Mutinelli and Rademacher, 2002). This procedure is intended to protect consumers from dangerous residues in food resulting from medicines used on animals. Conducted as a common European project by scientific institutes and beekeeper organisations from most European countries, oxalic acid was listed in Annex II of Council Regulation (EEC) 2377/90 in December 2003 (Rademacher and Imdorf, 2004). This means that the substance is declared not dangerous and that no residue limit is needed to protect the consumer. On this basis every European country can apply for legal approval of oxalic acid as a drug in bee colonies.

  19. #58
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid is harmless - I don't bother removing honey supers any longer.

    So this is interesting.

    The LD50 of oxalic acid looks to be 1080 mg/kg.

    At 230 pounds, 104 kg, I would have to consume 112 grams, basically a quarter pound to reach the LD50.

    Now consider applying 1g of oxalic acid vapor to a 10 frame deep with a 10 frame honey super. At roughly 9" x 17" per deep frame, and 6" x 17" per medium, and two sides per frame, I am coming up with 3060 in2, and 2040 in2. If there were no bees in the hive, 40% of the 1 g would end up across the honey super.

    If there is 50 pounds of honey in the medium, now contaminated with 0.4g of oxalic acid.

    This is ignoring the surface area of the bees. I google indicates the area of a bee to be 3 cm2, and across 50,000 bees, that would be 23,250 in2. So now you are less than 0.07 g across the 50 pounds of honey in the medium.

    I'd make the argument that removing the honey super and reinstalling it, immediately following the treatment has the same effect of never removing it at all.
    <1 Year - 2 Hives - North West Georgia

  20. #59
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    Default Re: Oxalic acid is harmless - I don't bother removing honey supers any longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by myrdale View Post
    So this is interesting.

    The LD50 of oxalic acid looks to be 1080 mg/kg.
    That comes from here: https://www.fishersci.com/store/msds...US&language=en

    That number you quote is for toxicity to rats, who have a much higher tolerance of many things than humans do. You may want to read more from the same company that quotes that number.

    https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/17361.htm
    From the piece that matters.
    =============
    Ingestion: Causes gastrointestinal tract burns. Oxalic acid is toxic because of its acidic and chelating properties. It is especially toxic when ingested. As little as 5 grams (71 mg/kg) may be fatal. Ulcerations of the mouth, vomiting of blood, and rapid appearance of shock, convulsions, twitching, tetany, and cardiovascular collapse may occur following ingestion of oxalic acid or its soluble salts. Oxalic acid can bind calcium to form calcium oxalate which is insoluble at physiological pH. Calcium oxalate thus formed might precipitate in the kidney tubules and the brain. Hypocalcemia secondary to calcium oxalate formation might disturb the function of the heart and nerves.
    =============

    As little as 5g can be a fatal dose for an average person. Read farther, longer term sub lethal effects include sterility in males, birth defects for women carrying a baby.

    So feel free, go eat your 100g helping then report back on how that went....
    Last edited by grozzie2; 07-15-2020 at 07:18 AM.

  21. #60
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    Default

    Grozzie, thanks for the info.

    I think you meant 5g can be lethal, not 5mg?

    Also I think username5 said they ate a little under 1g, not 100g.

    Still, a fifth of the "can be" lethal dose is a hell of a lot more than I'd eat! Gross.

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