Spun (Creamed) Honey issues
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  1. #1
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    Default Spun (Creamed) Honey issues

    My wife has been making Spun Honey that we sell at a local Farmers Market. Lately the batches she has been making seem to separate into layers. If you stir it again, it is fine, then settles into layers after a day or so. She has removed all, re-mixed, then re-filled jars again and it separates. She thinks it was a temperature issue in the process. Has anyone had this sort of experience before? There is also "streaking" of the contents in addition to the layering. This photo is of Cinnamon flavor.

    CinnamonSpun.jpg

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: Spun (Creamed) Honey issues

    It has air in it.

    This can be caused by fermentation in honey with too much moisture.

    But also your description "spun", what do you mean by spun? Are you whipping it? If so, could be introducing air.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  4. #3
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    Default Re: Spun (Creamed) Honey issues

    Thanks Oldtimer. Spun Honey is just another name for "Creamed" or "Whipped" honey. We just decided to use "Spun".
    Well if I remember this honey we used tested at 17% moisture. It's also what we bottle. Using a Kitchen Aid bowl mixer, thinking of switching over to a 1/2" drill with drywall mixer paddle on it. Mixing in a 5 gal. bucket.
    The mixer may be introducing some air. So you don't think it's a temperature issue?

  5. #4
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    Default Re: Spun (Creamed) Honey issues

    No it isn't a temperature issue. However if you heat that honey enough to make it more runny, the bubbles in it will come to the top, you will have froth on top but the honey under it will be clear.

    Creamed honey is honey that has had a "starter" of correctly grained honey added to it, and then been allowed to follow that grain pattern by holding at a cool temperature (normally 54 degrees or so) for a few days, so the honey ends up copying the small grain size of the starter and ends up fine grained and smooth to the the taste. Is that what you also mean by whipped?

    Just trying to clarify terms, because if by whipped you mean whipping as in the normal way the term is used in baking, ie whipping with a beater or similar, this could be introducing air.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  6. #5
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    Default Re: Spun (Creamed) Honey issues

    I had the same problem with some of my creamed honey with the streaking. I read that when crystals form they force the moisture into what remains of the base. I have a jar with streaks in it that is three years old that has yet to ferment, although it is unattractive, making it unsuitable to sell. When there is enough moisture to cause your product to layer I think you will have a problem with fermentation.
    I use a drill with a paint mixer attachment that has the spiral type blades. I run it sloooowly so as to not form that air sucking vortex.

    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  7. #6
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    Default Re: Spun (Creamed) Honey issues

    Might want to check your hydrometer. I had some honey ferment that was low moisture so I re-calibrated again and it was way off. I have a cheap hydrometer and learned I have to check it frequently. J

  8. #7
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    Default Re: Spun (Creamed) Honey issues

    Alright, good info all. Thanks for that. If the "seed" is high moisture content, can that ruin a batch? And will those characteristics be taken on by the honey that the seed is put into?

    @OldTimer - the term "whipped" is just an adjective more or less, not an action in this case. I've heard it called Creamed, Spun, Whipped, but know it is NOT the same as Honey Butter. I think Creamed and Spun are the most popular terms. Whipped is used in baking, culinary tasks, etc. Or to describe a man who is madly in love with his better half.

  9. #8
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    Default Re: Spun (Creamed) Honey issues

    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  10. #9
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    Default Re: Spun (Creamed) Honey issues

    Optimum temp for creamed honey is 57F.
    We all liquify crystalized honey with heat so it entirely possible that creamed honey subject to warm temperatures will separate into layers.Maybe store in the refrigerator.
    There is also the glucose/fructose ratio in different nectar sources.Sometimes my spring honey crystalizes(on it's own) into nice even crystals,other times it barely crystallizes at all.I have heard that locust honey is very slow to crystallize.My fall honey always seems to separate and crystalizes in layers.
    Gentle heat(105) does not liquify all and I get a layer of honey"sugar" in the bottom of the pail.

  11. #10
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    Default Re: Spun (Creamed) Honey issues

    Maybe too high a percentage of glucose which will not crystallize. I can't for the life of me create creamed honey with what my bees produce. I guess the local nectar has a high glucose content. My bottled honey that has been sitting on the shelf for years does not crystallize.

  12. #11
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    Default Re: Spun (Creamed) Honey issues

    Jonsi - "Maybe too high a percentage of glucose which will not crystallize" - I thought I read somewhere that the higher glucose to fructose ratio drives the crystallization story. Source of info?

  13. #12
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    Default Re: Spun (Creamed) Honey issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Holcombe View Post
    Jonsi - "Maybe too high a percentage of glucose which will not crystallize" - I thought I read somewhere that the higher glucose to fructose ratio drives the crystallization story. Source of info?
    Robert - don't remember the source but if I run into i"ll send it along. I think it may have been a talk from an Apimondia conference.

    Jon

  14. #13
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    Default Re: Spun (Creamed) Honey issues

    Quote Originally Posted by BeePappy View Post
    Alright, good info all. Thanks for that. If the "seed" is high moisture content, can that ruin a batch? And will those characteristics be taken on by the honey that the seed is put into?

    @OldTimer - the term "whipped" is just an adjective more or less, not an action in this case. I've heard it called Creamed, Spun, Whipped, but know it is NOT the same as Honey Butter. I think Creamed and Spun are the most popular terms. Whipped is used in baking, culinary tasks, etc. Or to describe a man who is madly in love with his better half.
    The terminology is important; creamed is a creaming process as mentioned above. In no way should it ever be interchangeable with “spun” or “whipped”. It is not the same process at all.
    Proverbs 16:24

  15. #14
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    Default Re: Spun (Creamed) Honey issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloverdale View Post
    The terminology is important; creamed is a creaming process as mentioned above. In no way should it ever be interchangeable with “spun” or “whipped”. It is not the same process at all.
    Are you saying that the process to make "Spun Honey" is different than how "Creamed Honey" is made? How so? As I mentioned above, to us it is merely part of the marketing. We chose to call our creamed honey, "Spun Honey".

  16. #15
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    Default Re: Spun (Creamed) Honey issues

    Well, spun honey sounds like it was spun somehow; I associate spun honey and whipped honey the same, with similar results, but will eventually separate because of the air whipped in. Creamed honey is creamed, adding in the fine seed crystals and stirring for days then cool temp. to cream/set it. When people ask me if I have whipped honey I say No! I have creamed honey. How do you make yours?
    That’s what I think. Deb
    Proverbs 16:24

  17. #16
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    Default Re: Spun (Creamed) Honey issues

    Cloverdale has it right, as far as terminolgy goes that would be used commercially, honey that has been creamed by the process she describes is called creamed. The terms "spun" and "whipped" are not used commercially.

    Where I am there is a rumour that has persistedin hobby circles all my life, that to cream honey you whip air into it. And I even attended a honey judging day at a bee club where honey that had air whipped into it was brought along and entered in the competition.

    I guess a person can choose to call their honey by any term they want. But the reason for my original question re terminology was that the OP was asking why his honey looked like it did, and to determine that I needed to know just what had been done to the honey. Unfortunately with the loose terminlogy, I am still not clear what has been done to that honey. There is definately something wrong with that jar of honey, but there are several options and i don't know which one. But it was either too high in moisture from the git go, or, it has had air whipped into it, or, whatever has been added to it has reacted.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  18. #17
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    Default Re: Spun (Creamed) Honey issues

    Well here's a follow up, and I am the OP. My wife has made a couple more batches of the 'Creamed'/'Spun' honey, and we are not experiencing the same condition as we did with one of the earlier batches. For Cloverdale and Oldtimer - she made her own seed, the starter for the Spun honey, from our own honey by grinding it until she got a nice, very smooth texture. The method she uses is similar to the Dyce method found on Youtube. We do use a mixer, in this case a 1/2"drill with a paddle "drywall" mixer blade on it. Slow and steady as to NOT whip any air into the mix. So this time around she is using a better control of the temperatures during the process. And the Spun honey is not separating into strata as before. We have done a Cinnamon Spun honey too, very popular with our clients, and very tasty. So apparently it was the temperature and not moisture content that was causing the issue. We'll of course monitor the situation as we go along. Now so far as the name of "Spun Honey" being used and sold commercially, I found at least 6 different brands, a couple of those national (Sue Bee for example) that use the term Spun Honey on their labeling of their product. It is indeed what many refer to as "Creamed" honey.
    And interestingly enough, look what I found here on BeeSource from 11 years ago. Now my question was in regards to process, looking for answers to what was occuring during production. The link here is ALL about Marketing and the different names given to Creamed or Spun Honey. Interesting. But don't read if you're not interested in the marketing aspects. Thanks for all of the input. Another reason why I like this site so much. Have a great Holiday weekend everyone! https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-Whipped-Honey

  19. #18
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    Default Re: Spun (Creamed) Honey issues

    I’m not commercial, and fortunately my marketing is great for a small guy. My marketing is creamed, but maybe I can call it honey butter. I also love this site, everyone has an opinion. You have a great weekend too.
    Proverbs 16:24

  20. #19
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    Default Re: Spun (Creamed) Honey issues

    Thanks BeePappy, I read your link, learn something every day.

    I guess if in some circles creamed honey is known as spun honey, then it would make sense for someone to add spun honey to some of their labels. The more different labels you have on a supermarket shelf, the more honey you are going to sell.

    I discovered that the term Spun Honey has been trademarked by Sioux Honey Association Co-op, who have also trademarked the term Sue Bee. So anybody marketing their honey as spun honey, could attract attention from Sioux Honey Association Co-op, if they were anything more than a back yard operation.

    Whenever commercial beekeepers are discussing honey and processing of it, they will use the term creaming. Spinning could mean something else entirely, and the term whipping is not used at all.

    In the thread you linked, it was noticeable that all the participants were hobbyists, except for one beekeeper who argued vigorously that the term creaming should be used not spinning or whipping, and he was the only commercial beekeeper on the thread.

    The issue with your own honey is not temperature related (with one possible exception). The honey that seperates into layers contains gas. As indicated by the micro bubbles, and the froth on top. The only thing you need to discover is how did the gas get there?

    The only way temperature could be involved is if the honey is fermenting, high or low temperature could accelerate, slow, or stop that process.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  21. #20
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    Default Re: Spun (Creamed) Honey issues

    From the "Encyclopedia of American Cooking"; Cream- To blend butter, usually softened, with a granulated or crushed ingredient until the mixture is soft and creamy.

    Maybe this is why the term "Creamed" was chosen, using honey instead of butter and the crushed ingredient being honey crystals.
    Just a guess.

    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

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