I blame LJ for the Rose method.
Results 1 to 13 of 13
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Bath, Maine, United States
    Posts
    2,791

    Default I blame LJ for the Rose method.

    Well for setting me off on it anyway. It seems there is not "a " Rose method. I have played with it a bit am wondering what others are seeing. I am using a stand alone hive as a victim which has it's own limits in options.

    Started off by letting them swarm. That conflicted with my vision of rotating through batches of cells. Never planned to do grafts, just frame rotation.
    Found I was not getting there regularly enough to catch the on the "fourth day add grain bag" step and was missing that cycle. So naturally believing it was better to change the method than myself I have tried varying the extent of bag coverage as sort of a vertical split. Got some nice looking starts with an immediate full bag block ( still access over the top so not emergency looking or timed ). Moved them to the QR side to finish. They tore them down instead.

    Have gotten three out the door, too soon to tell. One is looking like a no hatch. Really I am getting there 3 to 5 days apart.

    This queen has acted strangely to the rotation of 2 empty combs down into her box at each visit. Alternates between laying up beautiful slaps of solid worker and taking a break and only isolated small patches of brood. Looking for a pattern that explains, not seeing one. One of the good cells was found in the lower box on the outside of the outer frame opposite where she was working. The erratic space I am creating is likely the cause of that.

    As far as getting a lot out of a single hive it seems to have potential. It's erratic output is on me. Right now it is likely going to require supering to prevent flooding. not looking forward to the lifting.

    Crofter, you had a chance to try it out?
    It is hard to design a safety net that some will not use as a hammock.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    5,651

    Default Re: I blame LJ for the Rose method.

    I have not populated it with bees yet. I did one Snelgrove operation because of swarm cells and am waiting to see if the new queen gets mated. Another colony is busy drawing out some of the new Dadant depth frames.

    I was expecting a couple of nucs to be dropped off for me to experiment with but that is still pending.

    I have thought some about the degree of separation with only one of the upper nucs blocked and wondered about whether there would be enough isolation to induce concerted cell starting. Blocking just one side leaves the bees in that box in contact with bees that still have contact with bees still able to access queen pheremones.

    I think your experience is going to make me want to also close the access via the space above the shared divider.

    The tearing down of cells when made queen right is something I am not too experienced with. Most of my cells have been generated with the snelgrove double screen. I dont know what all subtleties are involved in their decision making on that. I think there is different predictabilities depending on whether Italian or Carni and some of the black native bees of europe; absolutely guess work there though.
    Frank

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Bath, Maine, United States
    Posts
    2,791

    Default Re: I blame LJ for the Rose method.

    Best to work with your successes before experimenting.

    I am working with a 1 hive sample, hate to extend observations too far.
    I am toying with giving her more space by putting another box under the X rather than supers above. Would increase the separation a bit I believe.

    This hive is far substandard in drawing comb. Not sure if that is my pulling off young bees to nucs or them. I am taking frames from top boxes not her brood frames, those go up to the cell starter box.
    It is hard to design a safety net that some will not use as a hammock.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    2,075

    Default Re: I blame LJ for the Rose method.

    I blame me too. Wish I hadn't said anything now ... (Much egg on the face)

    But it seemed like such a good idea. I made a half-hearted attempt with it myself, but it produced nothing, zero, zilch. So I went back to using the Nicot system with a Cloake Board. First run excellent, 2nd and 3rd runs - hopeless.
    But - I finally think I've got a handle on what I'm doing wrong (where have we heard that one before ?).

    So I've now returned to my tried-and-tested version of the Miiler Method over a divided Cloake Board - checked this morning - Q/Cells, not even a hint of a problem.

    I reckon "stick with what you know works" to produce the goods, and when you have those tucked safely away - only then try your hand at other Q/R methods.
    [whoops - I see Saltybee got there before me]

    Think I'll try my hand at the Hopkins Method just as soon as I get the next batch of nucs made-up - I've been wanting to try that technique for some years.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  6. #5
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    5,651

    Default Re: I blame LJ for the Rose method.

    I have a double deep colony that I placed an excluder into between the boxes. Couldnt find the queen but I am getting a bit defeatist about that. I will wait till the one box is hopelessly queenless; a week should be reasonably safe and will put the Cloake board in.

    I have been playing a bit with grafting so am gearing up to give that a shot. I have been thwarted a few times at trying to get selected comb laid up that coincides with the other timing events. Plastic foundations has limitations on methods

    I am trying to get a bit of honey and also get my numbers up so do not want to be too disruptive.

    I have had good results using the snelgrove system but am getting to wondering how much or if any I am leaving on the table compared to presenting them with a limited number of known young larvae and swarm like crowding.

    If the grafts do not take by next day I can go to plan B and put a frame of suitable larvae in.
    Frank

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Bath, Maine, United States
    Posts
    2,791

    Default Re: I blame LJ for the Rose method.

    I really do not blame LJ, nor the method. It is a vertical split with a little more isolation or a Snel with a little less.

    In fairness, the swarm is on me, and I have still gotten at least (2) good 3 frames splits off in just over a month plus the probable dud, but I have those bees. Still a strong double deep that is threatening to flood me out with nectar. Makes me add two empty frames each visit, now if I would just stop messing with her head on space timing. If i am not careful I will create a second swarm.

    Place it far ahead of a walk away.
    It is hard to design a safety net that some will not use as a hammock.

  8. #7
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    5,651

    Default Re: I blame LJ for the Rose method.

    Well I went in this morning and found the queen. I set up a Cloake board arrangement and pulled up a frame with open brood to lure some more nurse bees up to the top box and move entrance to above the board. Only gave them about 4 hours and put in the slide. About 3 hours later pulled the frame of open brood out and put in a frame with about 10 grafted larvae on a bar. First grafts and hardly text book preparation. Will see what happens.

    Threw in one pic of my box of dadant depth frames. Lighting does not show it but drawn to about half ways out and frame to frame. The queen will have a break away when she moves down into that playground.

    Snapped one of classic example of not orienting growth rings correctly. "Dont put your heart in a box of pine!"

    The Custom 11 frame divided for 2 side by stacks of 5 frame nucs a la Rose Method is still a maid in waiting!
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Frank

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Bath, Maine, United States
    Posts
    2,791

    Default Re: I blame LJ for the Rose method.

    "Dont put your heart in a box of pine!"

    We must grow them crooked in Maine. When the heart is in on one end and out on the other. You can't go wrong and you can't go right at the same time.

    Ninety today. That's not what we get.

    So I decide to go with medium supers over the double deep Rose set up. It will be less contact with the bees traveling down further to reach the Starter section. Thinking the heavy flow is actually negating the isolation as the starter section is being filled rapidly. While I was there I rotated up some new brood. With sweat pouring down my face I could see nothing, bees pretty calm so I pulled off the veil to see and promptly dropped one end of the frame. That got me 5 hits , a jog and glasses somewhere in the grass. Bet you know what my eye looks like tonight.
    It is hard to design a safety net that some will not use as a hammock.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    5,651

    Default Re: I blame LJ for the Rose method.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post
    "Dont put your heart in a box of pine!"

    We must grow them crooked in Maine. When the heart is in on one end and out on the other. You can't go wrong and you can't go right at the same time.

    Ninety today. That's not what we get.

    So I decide to go with medium supers over the double deep Rose set up. It will be less contact with the bees traveling down further to reach the Starter section. Thinking the heavy flow is actually negating the isolation as the starter section is being filled rapidly. While I was there I rotated up some new brood. With sweat pouring down my face I could see nothing, bees pretty calm so I pulled off the veil to see and promptly dropped one end of the frame. That got me 5 hits , a jog and glasses somewhere in the grass. Bet you know what my eye looks like tonight.
    Seems to me there was some direction to select a colony where some nectar was being placed in upper box. Nothing about having supers on if I remember correctly. Maybe too much traffic up and down with queen pheremone substance.

    With Snelgrove system two supers and excluder are between queen right lower box and the queenless section initially then the division board is added to the sum of this isiolation. In each case the queenless (hopefully cell starters) are at the extreme end with no traffic past their door. My extrapolation of what might be a cause. Sounds more profound than "wild ass guess"!

    80 here yesterday; wound up with sweat burning eyes and swimming glasses. When I think of it, I put a face cloth inside the veil that can be used in a pinch.

    Crooked trees like that are what the Aussies make boomerangs out of, not bee boxes!

    Light rain here today so dont know if I will get to check what kind of acceptance on the grafts.
    Last edited by crofter; 06-21-2020 at 07:40 AM.
    Frank

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Catskills, Delaware Cty, New York, USA
    Posts
    2,086

    Default Re: I blame LJ for the Rose method.

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    I blame me too. Wish I hadn't said anything now ... (Much egg on the face)

    But it seemed like such a good idea. I made a half-hearted attempt with it myself, but it produced nothing, zero, zilch. So I went back to using the Nicot system with a Cloake Board. First run excellent, 2nd and 3rd runs - hopeless.
    But - I finally think I've got a handle on what I'm doing wrong (where have we heard that one before ?).

    So I've now returned to my tried-and-tested version of the Miiler Method over a divided Cloake Board - checked this morning - Q/Cells, not even a hint of a problem.

    I reckon "stick with what you know works" to produce the goods, and when you have those tucked safely away - only then try your hand at other Q/R methods.
    [whoops - I see Saltybee got there before me]

    Think I'll try my hand at the Hopkins Method just as soon as I get the next batch of nucs made-up - I've been wanting to try that technique for some years.
    LJ
    Did you try the Hopkins Method LJ?
    Proverbs 16:24

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    2,075

    Default Re: I blame LJ for the Rose method.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloverdale View Post
    Did you try the Hopkins Method LJ?
    Not yet - I'm attempting to graft (for the umpteenth time) with a tiny brush later-on this morning. The idea being that 2 cell-bar frames of grafts will go into one nuc box above a divided Cloake Board, with the frame(s) I graft from being placed in the other nuc box - as I want to compare my sad attempts at grafting with a 'natural' (well, as much as anything is ever natural) source of larvae. That way, I'm fairly confident of getting a dozen q/cells from somewhere ... Then with those q/cells I can begin to remedy the 'virgins into nucs' fiasco I created for myself a couple of weeks ago. Then it'll be time to play.

    A while back I constructed a purpose-made case for the Hopkins Method, but I've just not had the opportunity to use it yet - am really looking forward to seeing how it works out. Is it Mel D who places bullets over chosen cells to protect them while sugaring the others ? Bullets are in short supply over here (only the police and crooks have them) so I'll be using some hard rubber beads as sometimes used in sea-fishing. Will post about results in due course ...
    Thanks for asking.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  13. #12
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    5,651

    Default Re: I blame LJ for the Rose method.

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Not yet - I'm attempting to graft (for the umpteenth time) with a tiny brush later-on this morning. The idea being that 2 cell-bar frames of grafts will go into one nuc box above a divided Cloake Board, with the frame(s) I graft from being placed in the other nuc box - as I want to compare my sad attempts at grafting with a 'natural' (well, as much as anything is ever natural) source of larvae. That way, I'm fairly confident of getting a dozen q/cells from somewhere ... Then with those q/cells I can begin to remedy the 'virgins into nucs' fiasco I created for myself a couple of weeks ago. Then it'll be time to play.

    A while back I constructed a purpose-made case for the Hopkins Method, but I've just not had the opportunity to use it yet - am really looking forward to seeing how it works out. Is it Mel D who places bullets over chosen cells to protect them while sugaring the others ? Bullets are in short supply over here (only the police and crooks have them) so I'll be using some hard rubber beads as sometimes used in sea-fishing. Will post about results in due course ...
    Thanks for asking.
    LJ
    LJ

    take some 1/4" dowel and chuck it in a drill. A quick buzz on the sander gives enough taper to bell mouth and seal the cell. My son uses the 6.5 or 7mm bullets he loads for.

    I checked my grafts last night after about 20 hours and they look encouraging. I made up another grafting needle with smaller tip. The one I made picks up OK but a bit fiddly to get larvae off. Made another with much smaller tip and have ordered a couple of 000 paint brushes. I surprised myself with how that went. Need a bit of fine tuning on procedure but my hand tremor does not appear to be a game killer. Sure is a convenient way to get cells where you want them, when you want them and from the queen of your choice.

    Found another colony with a couple of started cells but quite sure they are supercedure not swarm. I think I will make them a trade for one of my cells just to justify their existence if nothing else.
    Frank

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Bath, Maine, United States
    Posts
    2,791

    Default Re: I blame LJ for the Rose method.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post

    So I decide to go with medium supers over the double deep Rose set up. It will be less contact with the bees traveling down further to reach the Starter section. Thinking the heavy flow is actually negating the isolation as the starter section is being filled rapidly. While I was there I rotated up some new brood. .
    So my plan for a three day visit became a 8 day visit. Nice cell of three in the correct section. Made a 3 frame split. Found the two frames added last were stuffed with nectar not brood. Put it back together with the mediums below the Rose nucs. See if that cleans up the nectar. Still have not see her, just her work.

    My believed dud is laying well , her looks not impressive.
    My believed sure split, is still not or maybe just laying.
    3rd is out and waiting to show her stuff.

    3 not weak splits from a single hive after a swarm. still close to a double deep population. Can't complain about that. Have to say the method is viable for a small set up.

    If I thought I would keep a calendar there I would try a graft.
    It is hard to design a safety net that some will not use as a hammock.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •