Does doing a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing? - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe View Post
    ........If this works, why doesn't everyone do it? What am I missing? Sounds too easy.
    And now comes the "hard part" - go and try it and see for yourself.
    I think, Absinthe, you tend to fall into "analysis paralysis" loop.
    Seriously.
    I kind of lost counts of all the multiple directions of the discussions you started by now.


    Instead, do a practical iteration of "something" and at least learn from it.
    Based on your own observations and conclusions - make gradual change and repeat the program OR change the course entirely.
    And so on.

    So - what are you going to do?
    The season is here and now and the clock is ticking.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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  3. #42
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    Default Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    And now comes the "hard part" - go and try it and see for yourself.
    I think, Absinthe, you tend to fall into "analysis paralysis" loop.
    Seriously.
    I kind of lost counts of all the multiple directions of the discussions you started by now.


    Instead, do a practical iteration of "something" and at least learn from it.
    Based on your own observations and conclusions - make gradual change and repeat the program OR change the course entirely.
    And so on.

    So - what are you going to do?
    The season is here and now and the clock is ticking.
    All I can do is research, read, watch stuff, and ask questions for now. I hear no clock ticking, I believe (especially with all this stupid rain) that catching a swarm for me right now would simply be a fluke.

    I doubt I will catch a swarm this year, and swarm season is just about over, and looks like torrential rain until then anyway. So It doesn't look like I will have any bees to do any "try it and see what happens" kind of stuff on. So the last decision I "have to" make is whether to try to catch a swarm come early next season, or just commit to buying some bees. In any event, I need to take down the bait hives soon, and get rid of the earwigs, ants, and whatever else decided to move in, before I have neither usable wax/comb/or woodenware left. Time for a good coat of paint, and some inventory, and depending on what plan I actually end up with, build whatever equipment will be necessary to effect that plan. 5F nucs 2F nucs, more boxes or supers, feeders, escapes, frames and/or whatever all else. Depending on the plan, I will need different things.

    What I have decided is that I will be staying with Langstroth equipment. So if nothing else I will be building some frames.
    I also know that if I don't split then I likely won't make it through to following spring. And likewise if I am only able to do a single split.
    If I can do multiple splits so much the better, but in any event I will need some kind of NUCs be it 2 or 5 or 4 or 3. And I am not sure if I can get NUCs through the winter, so I may need to get whatever gets split into full size boxes. At least to single chamber.
    I am also guessing that I won't be able to depend on the flow so I will be feeding. So I will need multiple feeders. One other option is to try and make bees, at least enough that I could actually buy queens to effect splits, but I am not sure how I am feeling about that at this point either.
    I also know that I really need to get started early in the season. The one fellow that was relatively local to me, whose nuc's I was thinking I liked, when I looked back at my notes, was the one that ended up putting me off multiple times until it was pretty-near mid may before I was able to get it last time. I think I will be looking for a better source for next time. See if I can find a source that make sense.

    So other than repairing equipment, and building new stuff and rearranging my bee-yard layout, coming up with swarm trapping ideas there is very little hands-on I can do. I have figured out a few things that I did wrong, and how to fix them going forward. Other than that, I guess I just have annoying questions. But they seem to be the result of reading and watching experts whose motivations I am unsure of. Are they interested in selling books and equipment, or getting likes/follows/shares or are they committed to showing me something that will work somewhere else besides their personal bee yard?

  4. #43
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    Default Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe View Post
    ........ Are they interested in selling books and equipment, or getting likes/follows/shares or are they committed to showing me something that will work somewhere else besides their personal bee yard?
    Selling shovels to the gold-diggers was historically a successful business model.

    Still, there are few honest BS members right here who do not sell books or the like - and yet they keep the bees quite successfully.
    But the particular context of each and every case is important.

    Speaking of "too late"..
    In late August of 2016, I took a small swarm off a branch.
    These ones (look at the conditions):
    DSCN8885.jpg
    Hived them into a plywood trap hive and fed them straight sugar ('cause I had nothing else).
    They overwintered OK.
    And so the show went on ..
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  5. #44
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    Default Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe View Post
    . This original hive, now queenless should start to make queen cells from very early larva because they exist? Or they will make it from any of the 1-3 day-olds they find without differentiation?
    they preferentially chose older larva, and older larva makes poor queens..
    The queen cells were initiated around brood aged between 3 and 11 days; the average ageof brood used to initiate queen cells was 5.9 1.90 days (N = 131; Fig. 2A).
    Eggs were never observed inside queen cells. Queen cells from which queens emerged and those destroyed
    either before or after capping did not differ in the age of brood from which they were constructed (Mann-Whitney test: U = 1732, N1 =52, N2 = 79, P = 0.123; Fig. 2A). Most of the queen cells (60.3%) were destroyed, 17.6% of them before capping and 42.7% after capping (Fig. 2C). The queen cells were destroyed between the 5th and 18th days of brood development, and the average age of brood at the time of queen cell destruction was 13.0 3.48 days
    Tofilski, Czekonska (2004)

    but we see they tear down a lot of cells, and tarpy etal(1999) shows they tear down inferior cells leaving the better ones. https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._queen_quality

    So when you deequeen a hive and break it in to small nucs they don't have the volume of cells to chose form and are stuck with the hand you dealt them and don't chew down, leaving a lot of poor qualty queens, and a few good ones...


    Some work has bee done on the reverse, break them in to small walk away splits.
    The thought is they make more cells per split this way and then chew down to improve quality. Sam Comfort has gotten some impressive results doing this 49785038_1056177634590219_4405013420154071021_n(1).jpg
    but it sounds like it may be a little hit or miss.

    UMASS is running a study right now, testing small walk away splits ( 2 frames of brood (including eggs), 1 frame of food (nectar and pollen) and a shake of bees into a nuc ) VS placing a 48 hour cells and 10 day cells in nuc set up the same (100 of each treatment) and sending a smaple of the resulting queens to the Tarpy lab for quality scoring while the rest are evaluated on field performance.

    the results should be informative as to what is the best practice for the small scale beekeeper.
    https://projects.sare.org/project-reports/one19-326/
    "oh well, let us stick to science. let them have their beliefs and intuitions!" -Medhat Nasr

  6. #45
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    Default Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

    Sorry guys, we got a bit off topic. I moved the swarm trap discussion to a new thread in the appropriate sub-forum. https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ping-and-traps
    Last edited by JWPalmer; 05-22-2020 at 07:27 PM. Reason: add link
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  7. #46
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    Default Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    Sorry guys, we got a bit off topic. I moved the swarm trap discussion to a new thread in the appropriate sub-forum.
    Thanks for the redirection!

  8. #47
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    Default Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

    msl;

    I have seen some cells torn down but never documented as to their time of capping to see if they did indeed tear down some apparently started on older larvae. Snelgrove felt that older bees were more prone to start cells on older larvae than would a younger group of bees. Initially I started checking on day 4 after separation to discard any cells capped at that time but was not finding them so now dont bother.

    Perhaps it is a factor of doing a previous sort with excluder and shaken brood comb above requiring nurse bees to come up to the brood comb for a number of hours (and in his first experiments I believe 2 days) before placing that box above the double screen isolation board.

    This might give the nod to better queen quality than a brute force and awkwardness walk away emergency instigation. It would take a fair bit of doing to substantiate the difference in resulting quality.

    I guess that if a person is not otherwise doing much in the way of selection, it does not make much difference.
    Frank

  9. #48
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    Default Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

    Initially I started checking on day 4 after separation to discard any cells capped at that time but was not finding them so now dont bother.
    there is likly good reasons you wern't finding it.. a dealy in the onset of queen rearing and a longer development time of older larva

    Queen cells were initiated between the 1st and 9th days after dequeening (Fig. 5A). In two of the colonies the first queen cells were observed the day after dequeening, and in the other two colonies the second day after dequeening
    Our data show that both the precapping period and the whole development time of emergency queens increase with the age of brood from which the queens were reared (Fig. 3).
    Thus, estimations of brood age in emergency queen cells based on time of capping (Winston, 1979; Fell and Morse, 1984; Hatch et al., 1999;Schneider and DeGrandi-Hoffman, 2002) cannot be very accurate.
    The total development time of queens reared from brood that was younger at the time of dequeening tended to be shorter than the total development time of queens reared form older brood,
    Tofilski, Czekonska (2004)
    I forgot to put in the link last post https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/bad...ecc8d94e05.pdf
    its a good read, and suggests we need to change our "understanding" a bit on how things are working.. they confined the queens to a single comb per day for 8 days so they had known age larva to work with
    "oh well, let us stick to science. let them have their beliefs and intuitions!" -Medhat Nasr

  10. #49
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    Default Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

    Queen cells were initiated between the 1st and 9th days after dequeening (Fig. 5A). In two of the colonies the first queen cells were observed the day after dequeening, and in the other two colonies the second day after dequeening

    Nine days seems like much longer than reasonbly expected. That would put the time for rearing a caste queen of the least queenliniess at 5+ plus days; I have read of that extreme, but would that ever happen if younger larvae were available?

    Our data show that both the precapping period and the whole development time of emergency queens increase with the age of brood from which the queens were reared (Fig. 3).

    This would seem to negate the value of noting when cells get capped. That flys in the face of accepted practice; I am wondering why this info did not get more traction.

    Thus, estimations of brood age in emergency queen cells based on time of capping (Winston, 1979; Fell and Morse, 1984; Hatch et al., 1999;Schneider and DeGrandi-Hoffman, 2002) cannot be very accurate.

    The total development time of queens reared from brood that was younger at the time of dequeening tended to be shorter than the total development time of queens reared form older brood,

    At least those would tend to be destroyed by the first one out!

    Why is there not more hue and cry about what deplorable queens can be created by creating emergency queen rearing? There is much written that the bees know best. What is the genetic advantage to keeping such an apparently deleterious behavior of selecting older larvae when younger is available? In real world conditions is it such a rarity as to make it moot?

    I hope to produce a few queens where I can accurately control the selection age, though I cant really say I have had any real duds by basically letting the bees select larvae, albeit in a well populated and supplied conditions.
    Last edited by crofter; 05-23-2020 at 12:39 PM. Reason: Meditating over info in link provide. Maybe answer some of my own questions!
    Frank

  11. #50
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    Default Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

    I did not realize how complex was the culling process on the cells initiated. If conditions are poor and few cells started, their culling options are limited. Also surprised to see that the average age at selection of the successfully emerged queens was a little more than 3 full days from the egg.

    From another thread; that bees can determine from the larvae how multi mated its mother was and how well fed it had been at every step since emergence.

    Selecting a larvae at the youngest age and having it fed like a baby sumo wrestler from the get go seems to get the nod for highest achievement potential of the queen.

    Thanks
    Frank

  12. #51
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    Default Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

    I did not realize how complex was the culling process on the cells initiated If conditions are poor and few cells started, their culling options are limited.
    yep,or if you split it down into nucs and limit thier options
    here is a little more on the culling
    "We find that queen cells accessible to workers produce larger adult queens (as measured by thorax width) than from queen cells from which workers are experimentally excluded. These results indicate that adult workers may be ‘‘weeding out’’lower quality queens.Although the precise mechanism by which queen qualityis assessed by workers is not known, the end result of this additional social filter on colony investment in new queens may be expected to maximize colony-level fitness. Previous work has found that higher quality queens tend to be larger(i.e., higher wet mass, larger thorax and spermatheca),resulting in an increased likelihood to win fights with other queens, mate with an increased number of males (Tarpy et al.2011), and head colonies that are more productive (Rangelet al. 2013). Thus, preferentially rearing larger queens to adulthood selects for queens of higher reproductive poten-tial" Tarpy Et al 2015 of note the is the corect study, not the 1999 i listed earlyer
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...e_to_adulthood

    Selecting a larvae at the youngest age and having it fed like a baby sumo wrestler from the get go seems to get the nod for highest achievement potential of the queen.
    yes and WU ET AL 2018 found that the bees fed the cell cups to the same level, wider cellcups held more food and to led bigger, heaver queens with more ovaries, and more vitellogenin in the ovaries
    download (1).jpg

    of note they also found restricting a queens egg laying and then leting her lay led to bigger, heaver eggs that made better queens.

    When a hive swarms they restrict the egg laying and use bigger cups compared to e cells... So we see another way grafting may ( using big cups and a breeder queen kept in a small hive to restrict her egg laying) emulate swarm conditions.


    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    Why is there not more hue and cry about what deplorable queens can be created by creating emergency queen rearing? There is much written that the bees know best.
    there is plenty
    It all depends on were you get your "news" from so to speak... internet popular isn't allways right

    Telling people that the commercial/Big Ag ways and queens suck and they can easily make better with a simple split sells well with the masses.

    Telling them its going to take hard work and a lot of sweat equity.... not so much..

    all that being said.. yes E Queens can work, especially if you go "by the box" and the need to do so by BYBKs that came threw winter with a hive or 2 is a reality!!
    But when your numbers get a bit higher you will beneficent from more advanced techniques to yeald a better product
    Last edited by msl; 05-24-2020 at 07:20 PM.
    "oh well, let us stick to science. let them have their beliefs and intuitions!" -Medhat Nasr

  13. #52
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    Default Re: Does dong a bunch of walk away Nuc splits count as queen rearing?

    so how long can they keep her in that "swarm state of mind" before "bad" things happen?

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