Frames with **no** sidebar relief
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Mooresville, NC
    Posts
    350

    Default Frames with **no** sidebar relief

    I have seen recently where someone was making a bunch of frames and made the statement that he hated the reliefs and from now on was not going to have reliefs in the sides. And sure enough made his sidebars poker straight up and down, with a little chamfer on the very bottom. I believe there was some teaser as to "guess why" but he offered no actual explanation. In my mind, this simply creates a box within a box, so the bees will have to make their own paths between the combs (I assume he wasn't using plastic foundation.) I believe they were still self spacing so the bees could get up and over the top of the frames to access supers, and get below them to access the previous depth. There was no other design difference that I am aware of.

    I would guess this would keep the bees away from the inside walls of the boxes and supers, and I would intuit that they would work pretty hard on propolizing all the frames together. This does not seem like the best idea to me. Anyone know a good reason other than laziness of the builder to do this?

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Posts
    1,447

    Default Re: Frames with **no** sidebar relief

    The relief cut is a royal pain in the to make.

    I think that the biggest problem a full width-lenght side bar creates is the large area for the frames to get glued together with propolis. That makes the frames harder to separate and increases the chances that the side bar will get damaged. You could end up splitting the whole side of the side bar off. The relief only opens up 1/4" of space between the frames, its not a big enough space for a lot of bee traffic so I doubt it makes much difference to the bees. Frames used to be made with one edge of the sidebar chamfered to make a vee edge so that even less area got propolis bonded to the next frame.

    Yesterday I posted an easy, fast, and finger safe jig for making the relief cut.
    Zone 6B

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    2,076

    Default Re: Frames with **no** sidebar relief

    If I understand your description correctly - this is a very old idea. The first to use it was Huber with his 'leaves of a book' style of hive, then Quinby had a go, with his standing frame design. The last effort (that I know of) was that of D.L.Adair:



    ... who used the 'section-frame' brood-nest idea above, first in a cabinet hive (with similar section-based overhead supers), and later with his single-story Long Hive design for which he is more usually associated.

    As you rightly point out, the section-frame brood-nest effectively creates 'a box within a box', which is great for the bees as the stability of their environment increases, but it's a pain in the backside for beekeepers - firstly because there are two boxes to be dealt with on each inspection, but mainly because the 'inner' hive has to be more-or-less completely torn apart each time - just to inspect any single frame. And so understandably, this idea has never caught on.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Mooresville, NC
    Posts
    350

    Default Re: Frames with **no** sidebar relief

    Not all that hard to cut. You can cut that on a jointer before you slice them into thickness. Or you can setup a dado blade, and a guide and cut them over the top of the dado. Or you can hit it with the router. Or couple quick passes on the band saw.

    I like the idea of making the shape on a 2x6 or even 2x4 so the jointer is great. When doing the langstroth style doing the dado top and bottom for the top bar and bottom bar then run them up to a stop block on the jointer and 3/16 or 7/32 so on each side and you have it. Then just slice it on the table saw to 3/8 or on the bandsaw if you are feeling cheap and you have a good resaw blade.

    But the curve doesn't seem to be all that important, so when I did my first POC I just did a kerf thickness stopped cut on the table saw, similar to how you would do it on the band saw. So after 4 cuts and some slicing I got these from a chunk of scrap. That stupid knot fell out too

    frames.jpg

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Mooresville, NC
    Posts
    350

    Default Re: Frames with **no** sidebar relief

    Yes, I read that, it was great idea.

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Posts
    1,447

    Default Re: Frames with **no** sidebar relief

    A jointer would be my preferred way, but I don't have a jointer and in an already crowded shop its not likely I'll get one. I have cut them with my bandsaw in the past. It takes four cuts and the cut finish is not great. I've also tried my router table, and that felt like it was taking a lot longer than the band saw, although I didn't time it. The router left a nicer edge however. I don't know that the specific curve radius matters but I had a couple of the frames I made on the band saw fail at the square corner with the sidebar splitting when separating frames so I think that square end grain at the end of the relief is a potential stress point for failure. (Which I suspect is also the reason for the mystery chamfer mentioned in the first post). When I've made side bars I've only made a few at a time. This last batch for 30 mini-frames was the largest batch I've ever made, that was when I came up with the jig. I've got a Delta tenoning fixture that I use when making the top bar and bottom bar grooves in my blank. I think that for medium frames I could raise the saw blade high enough that I could make the relief cut in the 2x6 before I slice it. That would leave me with a square cut relief however, and no way would it reach for a deep frame. But then again I've never made deep frames, I just buy them. I've got plenty of deeps but if Mann-Lake doesn't ship my order within a couple of weeks I may be making some medium frames or using deeps as supers.
    Zone 6B

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Mooresville, NC
    Posts
    350

    Default Re: Frames with **no** sidebar relief

    The joy of woodworking is that there is always another way to do stuff. I had thought about that curve for a while and came up with a bunch of different ideas. You can drill a hole at the head of the curve and cut a straight line to the hole. You can use it as an excuse to buy a jointer, lunch box style, or hand held. You can also use a sander, belt or spindle. Low grit 50 or 32 would make insanely quick work of it. I am not sure what the actual issue with the band saw is, but most times when I see people do that, they just snip the corner at a 45 which I think would be sufficient to relieve the corner. If you have a router table, bury the biggest round bit you have in a fence, and all you need is to do that head of the curve, the rest of it is straight, and could easily be done on the table saw first, or afterwards. Just cut the curve and not the whole length of the bar. I think I had a few more, but they aren't coming to me right now.

    The drill a hole one is interesting because you can compensate starting with a 1-1/2 width of a 2x that is going to be reduced to somewhere around 1-1/4 anyway, so I am thinking that a 5/16 hole after removing an 1/8 that side leaves 3/16 void, so 2 together results in the magical 3/8" bee space. I think this would make for 1-1/4" wide sidebar with a 7/8 narrow part. IDK, I am just thinking out loud.

    You have a good solution, and it works. That's good enough.

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Follansbee, WV, USA
    Posts
    111

    Default Re: Frames with **no** sidebar relief

    I've cut the relief both with a dado blade and with the jointer. The jointer is faster, but I have to rip the blanks down to 5.75" because I only have a 6" jointer and use 2x12 stock (planed down to thickness in the planer of course). I have noticed absolutely no difference between a squared relief and a curved relief. I cut the top bar channel first, then remove a chipper from the dado and cut the bottom. Then pass each side over the jointer to the stop, over to the band saw with a 4 tpi re-saw blade, and bam, bam, bam. Done. I can make 100 side bars pretty quickly for pennies a piece.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Posts
    1,447

    Default Re: Frames with **no** sidebar relief

    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe View Post
    If you have a router table, bury the biggest round bit you have in a fence, and all you need is to do that head of the curve…
    When I used a router table I used a 1/2" bit set 1/8" proud of the fence and I clamped a 1/8" shim to the out feed side of my fence to support the out feed side of the side bar. It worked quite well actually, just was slower. And not quite as finger safe as this new jig, although I could have added some blocks to make it finger safe.
    Zone 6B

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Mooresville, NC
    Posts
    350

    Default Re: Frames with **no** sidebar relief

    What I was suggesting is a big bit, maybe 1-1/2 or whatever your router can handle. Then a stop block that would simply let you knock the end of the wood against it and rotate it flat to the fence so you were just cutting a small section of a semi-circle in one spot. Then flip it over and do it on the other side. Here is an example, but it is freehand, so it is not to scale. You can see where the router bit would cut, then you can imagine where the table saw or band saw could cut.

    Top image is 2 cuts on the router table. Next is first cut on saw. and last is after second cut on saw.

    cuts.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Gerald, Mo. USA
    Posts
    33

    Default Re: Frames with **no** sidebar relief

    I cut these with my router table. A large diameter bit, depth set with the fence, and length maintained with a stop block. I feed right to left, with pressure against the fence on the upper area that won't be cut. I zip through these fairly easily, and don't find this cut to be a problem.
    I need to go back to work. This being retired is working me too hard!

  13. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelCfffg View Post
    A large diameter bit, depth set with the fence, and length maintained with a stop block. I feed right to left, with pressure against the fence on the upper area that won't be cut.
    This is how I cut my sidebars, but I usually get a lot of tear out at the end of the cut.

    The next time I make them I think I’m going to use Absinthe‘s idea to cut the curved part first. Then, I’ll run them through normally.

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    2,076

    Default Re: Frames with **no** sidebar relief

    Hoffman side-bars hold no interest for me, but if I did want to make some - then I'd make them 'double-length' end-to-end (cutting-out the middle narrow portion on a router-table, using simple stops), then cut that double length in half.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    4,312

    Default Re: Frames with **no** sidebar relief

    If one is to run small, shallow frames (Lang mediums and such), what is the need for such complication as the relief?
    The relief is simply not needed.
    I say ignore the conventions as unnecessary and rather strange carry-over from larger frames, to be honest.

    Look at the plastic Lang medium frames as a demo - the relief is largely gone, outside of shaved lower corners.

    Here is another common small frame:
    FrameForUDAV.jpg

    OK, for the deeper frames - maybe.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  16. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Mooresville, NC
    Posts
    350

    Default Re: Frames with **no** sidebar relief

    This guy says he doesn't do it, and just tapers the bottom...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0euDPaYD0FA

  17. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    4,312

    Default Re: Frames with **no** sidebar relief

    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe View Post
    This guy says he doesn't do it, and just tapers the bottom...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0euDPaYD0FA
    Exactly.
    Small taper off at the bottom corners - to assist with frame insertions.
    That is sufficient.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  18. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Mooresville, NC
    Posts
    350

    Default Re: Frames with **no** sidebar relief

    So if you push the frames together, the bees can only get out the bottom or out the top, unless you have a soft top cover. This keeps them away from the walls, I assume. If you do this, do you make them wider so that there is not beespace between the frames and the walls? Also, without the beespace reliefs, don't the bees like caucasians, black bees, and russians or any other ones that like to propolize everything, want to connect all the frames together? Or do you do the old design of slanting the edge of the frame, so one edge is square and the other is like a plane blade, giving you very little contact. I can imagine pulling a frame and absolutely every other one comes out at the same time because they are all connected from within

  19. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Mtn. View, Arkansas, USA
    Posts
    2,842

    Default Re: Frames with **no** sidebar relief

    The English beekeeper R. O. B. Manley used closed end frames with wide bottom bars in his honey supers, they were on a wide spacing to help with hand un-capping. They work ok in honey supers where there is little frame handling, but propolis buildup is a nuisance.
    42 + years - 24 colonies - IPM disciple - Naturally Skeptic

  20. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    4,312

    Default Re: Frames with **no** sidebar relief

    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe View Post
    So if you push the frames together, the bees can only get out the bottom or out the top, unless you have a soft top cover. This keeps them away from the walls, I assume. If you do this, do you make them wider so that there is not beespace between the frames and the walls? Also, without the beespace reliefs, don't the bees like caucasians, black bees, and russians or any other ones that like to propolize everything, want to connect all the frames together? Or do you do the old design of slanting the edge of the frame, so one edge is square and the other is like a plane blade, giving you very little contact. I can imagine pulling a frame and absolutely every other one comes out at the same time because they are all connected from within
    Again, if you look at the standard Lang medium frames (the plastic type), you will see they are already touching at about ~80%.
    OK, look here - https://www.betterbee.com/frames/pla...ames-box72.asp
    So this is telling us - why just not do the ~90-100% and don't even worry of the subject?
    Basically, you ought to keep them tight to minimize propolising to each other, regardless.

    Regarding the "double-wall" - this is again just a general bee-space issue applicable as everywhere.

    The picture of the frame I posted - people use it on hundreds and thousands of hives and are not concerned.
    Here is one video for you:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-2c6kmJ4Uk
    For one example, go to 2:15 and watch.
    Go to 37:00 and watch.
    Last edited by GregV; 06-02-2020 at 01:40 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  21. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Cass, Minnesota, USA
    Posts
    23

    Default Re: Frames with **no** sidebar relief

    It looks to me like the frames are spaced out in the video and the sidebars aren't touching.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •