Foundation-less frames - Page 2
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 56
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Albany NY
    Posts
    272

    Default

    Over thinking. If you already have comb the top bar does not matter. They use the neighbor comb as a template and will ignor all triangles and wedges. Just osbn or drop a frame between 2 straight brood frames and they will do the rest. Reinforcements may be needed for extracting. We do extract FL Lang deeps without any reinforcements but we check that they are attached at least partly on all four sides and are strong. We spin gently for a few minutes longer. After a few runs you will see what works for you with your extractor.
    For drawing, I find the bees attach comb just fine and don't need a starter strip or wax dribble. First comb(s) in a large hive are always drone. This year I added space on top with 50% drone 50% worker comb. I osbn box bellow. They drew drone. So it may have little to do with how much drone comb is in the hive but rather where it is and what season it is....
    For FL any frame works fine if you are transitioning and already have comb. For just starting out triangle and starter strip may be helpful, but they will also ignore them.... Its good marketing though, if you plan to make a run of them Make them unique so anyone who believes your frames are the best can only get them from you....
    Btw the flat bar works great, esp for cleaning if when you need to. One scrape with the hive tool and you are done....
    Happy beekeeping everybody!

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    53,942

    Default Re: Foundation-less frames

    >1. Wedge frames. These had the design such that you broke off the wedge put in a piece of foundation and nailed/stapled it in tight using the wedge.
    The alternative was to turn the wedge sideways, and nail it in sans foundation and it provided a strip of wood for the bees to lay out their comb straight.

    Works fine.

    >2. Slotted frames. These had a slot through the top rail that you spread slightly and slid in a sheet of foundation then let it pinch, and either bent the foundation over or used some hot wax as glue.

    Not sure I understand. I have used strips of foundation and waxed them in with the Van Dusen Wax Fastener and that works fine. I don't see why you would bend it.

    >The alternative was to cut a thin piece of wood, or use a tongue depressor or ice cream stick etc in place of the foundation and pinch or tack it in place.

    Glue it and tack it. It works fine and will outlast the wax strip.

    >3. Completely flat top frame. Supposedly one could run a bead of wax along the underside and that would be good enough to cue the bees where/how to make a straight line.

    Complete failure.

    >4. Slightly raised angle. This seems like a bit much for a table saw employing about 4 additional passes, to make this little raised angle in the center. as shown here https://www.beesource.com/wordpress/...pbarstyles.png

    Will work most of the time but not as often as other methods.

    >5. Recently I saw where the whole triangle as wide as the top bar was cut and added after the fact. Similar to the one in #4 but the angle was the whole width of the bar.

    Yes. That works great and will be a bit more forgiving than other methods as far as combs falling out.

    >6. What I haven's seen but seemed intuitive, was merely to basically rabbet both sides leaving the raised tongue (like a t&g board) without bringing it to a point.

    Yes this works too.

    I've done them all. The more distinct the edge the better they will follow it.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  4. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Mooresville, NC
    Posts
    216

    Default Re: Foundation-less frames

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >

    >5. Recently I saw where the whole triangle as wide as the top bar was cut and added after the fact. Similar to the one in #4 but the angle was the whole width of the bar.

    Yes. That works great and will be a bit more forgiving than other methods as far as combs falling out.

    >6. What I haven's seen but seemed intuitive, was merely to basically rabbet both sides leaving the raised tongue (like a t&g board) without bringing it to a point.

    Yes this works too.

    I've done them all. The more distinct the edge the better they will follow it.
    I guess I was looking for whether there was some magic in the pointy angle aspect. If I am building these myself, it would seem silly to cut a slot just to put a narrow blade into it after the fact. Unless that serves to maintain a specific thickness of the top bar. Although the slot is just a single cut, and perhaps gives me the option to change my mind and use wax or plastic foundation at some point if necessary.

  5. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    1,969

    Default Re: Foundation-less frames

    I was once asked to make-up a Top Bar nucleus colony, and remembered that there were several lengths of triangular hardwood section in the shed which I could easily and quickly glue onto plain top bars. Job done. ...and so I installed the bees and left them to it.

    Several hours later I walked past that box and heard a strange sound: "Thunk". Very odd. And a few minutes later, "Thunk" again. And so I listened for a while and this sound kept being repeated every few minutes. Overcoming my curiosity, and in the belief that I was about to discover some hitherto unknown beekeeping phenomenon, I lifted the end bars and peeped in - only to see a bunch of bees hanging down from a knife-edge and, as soon as the bunch grew to the required size - it simply fell off - down onto the box floor. And it was the bees hitting the floor which produced this "Thunk" sound. I felt so sorry for them. The poor things just couldn't get a good enough grip on the smooth hardwood section. Coating those triangular sections with wax solved that particular problem.

    My favourite starter strips are popsicle sticks glued into a groove, but I've also cast wax starters directly in place onto a plain bar. But popsicle sticks are easier and quicker - and give plenty of grip.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  6. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Posts
    1,362

    Default Re: Foundation-less frames

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    My favourite starter strips are popsicle sticks glued into a groove…
    LJ
    They actually don't have to be glued into the groove. I dip one side of the stick in the wax pot to coat it and set it aside to let it harden while I dip one side of all the other sticks. Then I go back and dip the other sides and quickly press each stick into the groove before the wax fully hardens. That's enough to hold the stick in the groove. (The sticks do need to be a close fit to the groove, a paint stir stick, cut narrow with a razor knife, fits better than a popsicle stick) Once the bees attach the comb it's not going anywhere, but should I ever want to put foundation in that frame at a future point then I can easily pry out the stick.
    Zone 6B

  7. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Mooresville, NC
    Posts
    216

    Default Re: Foundation-less frames

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    I was once asked to make-up a Top Bar nucleus colony, and remembered that there were several lengths of triangular hardwood section in the shed which I could easily and quickly glue onto plain top bars. Job done. ...and so I installed the bees and left them to it.

    Several hours later I walked past that box and heard a strange sound: "Thunk". Very odd. And a few minutes later, "Thunk" again. And so I listened for a while and this sound kept being repeated every few minutes. Overcoming my curiosity, and in the belief that I was about to discover some hitherto unknown beekeeping phenomenon, I lifted the end bars and peeped in - only to see a bunch of bees hanging down from a knife-edge and, as soon as the bunch grew to the required size - it simply fell off - down onto the box floor. And it was the bees hitting the floor which produced this "Thunk" sound. I felt so sorry for them. The poor things just couldn't get a good enough grip on the smooth hardwood section. Coating those triangular sections with wax solved that particular problem.

    My favourite starter strips are popsicle sticks glued into a groove, but I've also cast wax starters directly in place onto a plain bar. But popsicle sticks are easier and quicker - and give plenty of grip.
    LJ
    Seems, like it may just be the easiest way to go. Not sure about using the ice cream sticks, but I can sure enough cut up every scrap piece of wood through the process into strips that would fit in there.

  8. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
    Posts
    4,236

    Default Re: Foundation-less frames

    This is all I use. I am all medium.

    cheers
    gww
    Attached Images Attached Images
    zone 5b

  9. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Mooresville, NC
    Posts
    216

    Default Re: Foundation-less frames

    Looks like a triangle to me.

  10. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
    Posts
    4,236

    Default Re: Foundation-less frames

    Abs....
    I got this from looking at options on michael bush's web site. I make my own frames and just rip each side of the top bar at 45 degrees with table saw before assembly. I have them in ten hives, so I guess I like them though I have never tried anything else to compare.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  11. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Mooresville, NC
    Posts
    216

    Default Re: Foundation-less frames

    certainly seem easy enough 1 more cut and no glue or extra wood involved.

  12. #31
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    1,969

    Default Re: Foundation-less frames

    Quote Originally Posted by JConnolly View Post
    They actually don't have to be glued into the groove. I dip one side of the stick in the wax pot to coat it and set it aside to let it harden while I dip one side of all the other sticks. Then I go back and dip the other sides and quickly press each stick into the groove before the wax fully hardens. That's enough to hold the stick in the groove. (The sticks do need to be a close fit to the groove, a paint stir stick, cut narrow with a razor knife, fits better than a popsicle stick) Once the bees attach the comb it's not going anywhere, but should I ever want to put foundation in that frame at a future point then I can easily pry out the stick.
    That reminds me - if you should ever put a short frame into a bigger box and the little darlings draw wild comb below it - if it's worker comb, then after cutting it off, take a couple of battens covered in Sellotape, and squash the topmost half-inch between them - insert that into the top-bar groove and add a half-dozen drops of molten wax to hold it in place. Saves wasting a perfectly good starter.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  13. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Mooresville, NC
    Posts
    216

    Default Re: Foundation-less frames

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    That reminds me - if you should ever put a short frame into a bigger box and the little darlings draw wild comb below it - if it's worker comb, then after cutting it off, take a couple of battens covered in Sellotape, and squash the topmost half-inch between them - insert that into the top-bar groove and add a half-dozen drops of molten wax to hold it in place. Saves wasting a perfectly good starter.
    LJ
    Is that better than just rubber banding it in? Is there actually any harm in just leaving it on the bottom bar as it is?

  14. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Posts
    1,362

    Default Re: Foundation-less frames

    If you want to return the frame to a medium box then it has to go.
    Zone 6B

  15. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Mooresville, NC
    Posts
    216

    Default Re: Foundation-less frames

    Okay, I see what you mean. But otherwise, should be ok.

  16. #35
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Southern, New Hampshire, USA
    Posts
    54

    Default Re: Foundation-less frames

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    This is all I use. I am all medium.

    cheers
    gww
    Cool, I just did this to a few frames to try it out. I strung some fishing line through the holes on the end bars. What are peoples take on that?

  17. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Mooresville, NC
    Posts
    216

    Default Re: Foundation-less frames

    I wonder, does the mono-filament do better than the stainless wire? I have heard where some queens don't like to lay in holes where the wire is. Do they mind the mono-filament as much?

    I am trying to come up with some jigging such that I can make the majority cuts on the 1x12 before ultimately slicing them into top bar blanks. Then each of the 4 receiving dadoes could be cut.

  18. #37
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    5,482

    Default Re: Foundation-less frames

    If I hunted it up, I could show a pic where the queen layed an egg right on a wire. The first time laid up though they often pass up on such holes but the next time around after the bees polish up the cells for refill they are accepted.

    If you ard embedding into imprinted foundation you need the wire for conductivity. If prestringing before drawing foundationless it does not matter much, mono or metal. I doubt much of the wire is truly stainless as that would be triple the price. I think you will find it be tinned or bright plated common steel. If using monofilament line go for at least 30 pound test. Much lighter and the bees can snip it. Heavier is easier to work with anyway.

    Monofiliament line about 6 days time lapse.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Frank

  19. #38
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aylett, Virginia
    Posts
    5,008

    Default Re: Foundation-less frames

    I like the mono-filament because it is easy to work with and the queen does not avoid it. When the time comes to cull out the extra drone comb, it is easy enough to cut with a knife. The same could be said for harvesting queen cells. A cell next to a wire cannot be cut out, but the fishing line can be cut and left embedded in a portion of the cell.

    Nice pics Frank!
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  20. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
    Posts
    4,236

    Default Re: Foundation-less frames

    A swarm I did not get to in time.

    Except my swarm traps, I run all mediums. I don't find the need to use any kind of wire.

    Even though this pictured frame is strait on the bottom, the bees did make a ball of wax under some of the frames and so rather then cut it all off, I just left the trap for my bottom box. Keeping the hive level (side to side) Probably helps. I have had some fat comb that I move around to get ate back into shape and have had some try and curl at the ends of the frame but mostly, the bees do a real good job of keeping things strait and you have some options if they don't. You can pull a frame and run fewer frames if fat (only after most are drawn out). I have fixed some and have blew out a few during extracting but for the price, I just love foundationless and mediums.
    Cheers
    gww
    Attached Images Attached Images
    zone 5b

  21. #40
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Croatia
    Posts
    115

    Default Re: Foundation-less frames

    Typical error: IMG_20200522_165633_v.jpg And correction: IMG_20200522_165801_v.jpg

    Combs are connected to the bottom wire sooner, compared to wooden bottom bar.
    IMG_20200522_170304_v.jpg IMG_20200522_171013_v.jpg

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •