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Thread: requeen failure

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
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    Wakefield, Rhode Island, USA
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    485

    Default Re: requeen failure

    Thanks for the reminder, time for me to apply this approach and learn.

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  3. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    Salem, Oregon
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    1,840

    Default Re: requeen failure

    Cfalls, take a minute and read thru this:
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...roduction-tips
    I have exactly ONE more hive than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond dispute!

  4. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    New Paltz, New York, USA
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    140

    Default Re: requeen failure

    Thanks. For those who don't want to read his whole post, basically he says to feed them syrup, put the queen cage in the middle of a brood frame, and don't return for 10 days. He doesn't think you need to wait before introducing the queen, or do anything to delay her release, or use a push-in cage.

    I got through 3 of the 10 deep boxes today before it started raining again, shaking the bees off each frame and tearing down all the queen cells. Pretty rough work with these bees. My main concern is that virgins may have already emerged, in which case I'll lose this second batch of queens as well.

  5. #24

    Default Re: requeen failure

    This is the way I do it….it works for me….therefore it is the absolute right way and universally works.
    Sorry Harry. It doesn’t always work. Sometimes, for reasons I can’t explain, your way works very poorly.
    To write that post as well as your linked post in such a heavy handed way, insisting that your method is the only true way….is a disservice to many.
    You may want to check your ego before logging on.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  6. #25
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    Nov 2017
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    New Paltz, New York, USA
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    Default Re: requeen failure

    To be fair, it probably would've worked better than what I did.

  7. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    Salem, Oregon
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    Default Re: requeen failure

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Sorry Harry. It doesn’t always work.
    In my life experience, nothing always works.
    I think I might have mentioned that our success rate is around 98%. That's 2 queens lost out of every 100 which is too many.

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    You may want to check your ego before logging on.
    WOW, Dan!! Are we having a bad day over there?
    SHEESH!! You may want to take a look at how you talk to your fellow beekeeper.
    Very disappointing.
    I have exactly ONE more hive than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond dispute!

  8. #27

    Default Re: requeen failure

    Quote Originally Posted by cfalls View Post
    To be fair, it probably would've worked better than what I did.
    The only thing I saw you do that was inconsistent with Harry’s prescription was opening the hive in 5 days. The installed queens had been released and were gone…right? There were emergency cells in all four hives…right?
    What other ‘cockamamie, monkey-motion procedures’ from the ‘books’ did you do?
    If you had opened the hives in 10 days instead of 5 what would have been different?
    From what I can tell, the only difference between opening the hive in 5 days vs 10 is that in 10 you might have had a virgin running around in some of those hives.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  9. #28
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    Nov 2017
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    New Paltz, New York, USA
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    Default Re: requeen failure

    Dan, there were a few details that could've been more like Harvey's formula.

    1. (minor) I did not feed syrup. Many sources indicate that that helps.

    2. (minor) I came back in 5 instead of 10 days. I don't think that mattered, as the queens were already dead (I think).

    3. (MAJOR) I left the hives queenless for 5 days instead of 0 to 1 day, causing them to have queen cells in progress. (And I did not look for and remove them, as per Dan's formula.)

    If I had it to do over again, I would follow Harvey's formula. But now, I think my only option is Dan's more labor-intensive formula -- cut out those queen cells and make them hopelessly queenless.

    I haven't found any #8 hardware cloth locally, though. Might install cages without removing the cork and see if the queen appears to be accepted.

    Question: Should I try to install the new queens in the big queenless colonies after removing the queen cells? Or would I be better off attempting to install them into the nucs I made, and then only later combining the nucs with the bigger colonies?

    It's going to be sunny tomorrow, so I'll do the work then.

  10. #29
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    Jun 2011
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    Campbell River, BC, CA
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    1,880

    Default Re: requeen failure

    delete

  11. #30
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    Nov 2017
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    New Paltz, New York, USA
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    Default Re: requeen failure

    Ok, it turns out I *do* have a little #8 hardware cloth. I'd just have to scavenge it off of unused nuc boxes, where it had been used for ventilation. The resulting push-in cages will be smaller than I wanted, but I do think this will give me a better chance of success (according to Mike Palmer, Tom Glenn, and a bunch of other reputable sources).

    Harvey's incredible success rate could be partially attributable to unknown factors -- the sort of bees he uses, how much smoke he uses, the time of year, not allowing queen cells to form all over the place (lol)... Given that I won't be able to replicate every detail, I'd like to have this extra push-in-queen-cage factor in my favor.

  12. #31

    Default Re: requeen failure

    Quote Originally Posted by cfalls View Post
    3. (MAJOR) I left the hives queenless for 5 days instead of 0 to 1 day, causing them to have queen cells in progress. (And I did not look for and remove them, as per Dan's formula.)
    Ahh yeah…..I overlooked that fine point.
    I do have to ask where you got that idea?
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  13. #32
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    Apr 2005
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    Salem, Oregon
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    Default Re: requeen failure

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Ahh yeah…..I overlooked that fine point.
    Would this be a case of "Shoot first; read the posts second?
    I have exactly ONE more hive than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond dispute!

  14. #33

    Default Re: requeen failure

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryVanderpool View Post
    Would this be a case of "Shoot first; read the posts second?
    Pot meet kettle.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  15. #34
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    Nov 2017
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    New Paltz, New York, USA
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    Default Re: requeen failure

    I'm sure he read it, but if I can't remember all the stuff I F'ed up, I'm sure it's no easier for you guys.

    Do you I think need to worry that there will be virgins on the loose tomorrow? Or would it be too early for the queen cells I caused to have emerged? Basically I'm wondering if it's too late to follow the Dan-plan.

  16. #35

    Default Re: requeen failure

    Quote Originally Posted by cfalls View Post
    Do you I think need to worry that there will be virgins on the loose tomorrow?
    About 12 days since the split? Pretty likely, I'm thinkin'.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  17. #36
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    Nov 2017
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    New Paltz, New York, USA
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    Default Re: requeen failure

    Hmm, in that case I'm more inclined to install the queens in the nucs where I know what's happening. Even with a push-in cage, introducing a mated queen into a hive with virgins seems like a recipe for chaos. Ugh. What a mess I've made.

  18. #37

    Default Re: requeen failure

    Quote Originally Posted by cfalls View Post
    What a mess I've made.
    Most of us have made messes in our beekeeping. We tend not to repeat them yet often manage to create different ones.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  19. #38
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    Apr 2017
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    Aylett, Virginia
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    5,269

    Default Re: requeen failure

    I think the saying "When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging" might apply here. I would leave the bees alone for two weeks and then re-evaluate. You have lots of time to correct any mistakes you may have already made, just need to stop making new ones in the meantime.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  20. #39
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    Nov 2017
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    New Paltz, New York, USA
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    Default Re: requeen failure

    Just an update on the monkey motion:

    I saw JW's advice to quit while I'm behind, but I had 5 queens in cages and felt like I needed to do something with them.

    1. I have one full-sized colony (three 10-frame deeps) that hadn't yet had any monkey motion applied to it, so I figured I'd apply the Harvey plan to it. But when I got in there, I found queen cells, some already capped! And there were fresh eggs. I went ahead and tore down many of the queen cells, maybe all of them. (They have eggs so they shouldn't end up hopelessly queenless, and even if they do, great, I have queens to give them.) My main concern is that they may be planning to swarm. Already! Hopefully they just want to supercede, but I don't know, there were a lot of bees in there. There was a good number of empty cells so I don't know what I was supposed to do to prevent this. I made sure they had empty drawn comb all around the brood nest about a month ago and NY's flow hasn't really started yet. Anyway, I did not attempt to give them a queen because they have eggs and I did not find the queen.

    2. I installed 3 of the queens in the nucs. Remove the old queen, check for queen cells, put new queen in push-in cage over brood and honey, put syrup in top feeder, close them up.

    3. I installed 1 queen in the full-sized colony whose queen cells I destroyed a couple days ago. Same process as for the nucs. Any oddity, though, is that I found about 4 random super young larvae swimming in jelly. I'm thinking laying worker but there were no cells with multiple eggs, and only those 4 cells had eggs or larvae out of 10 frames. I can't imagine how they could have a queen.

    4. I installed 1 queen in the full-sized colony whose upper brood chamber I'd gone through and destroyed cells. So for this one there was the extra step of going through the lower brood chamber but I didn't find any queen cells or virgins down there.

    I have two of the old queens in cages.

    I feel pretty good about what I did. The queens in the nucs should be good -- standard process, as recommended by Palmer. The full-sized colonies, well, I'll have to wait and see.

    Question: If a colony has capped queen cells this early, are they swarm cells? Other than give them drawn comb around the brood nest and a super of drawn comb, what can I do before about mid-April to prevent this?

  21. #40
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    Nov 2017
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    New Paltz, New York, USA
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    Default Re: requeen failure

    I can't believe what I just saw. I was sitting outside watching the bees come and go on their landing board when a big fat marked cordovan queen walked out onto the landing board, turned around, and went back into the hive. I've never seen a queen do that before.

    So apparently, she was not killed (yet), but hadn't started laying yet, and also had not torn down the queen cells.

    Embarrassingly, this is one of the hives that I gave a push-in cage to yesterday. So, as much as I hate to extend this comedy of errors, I feel like I should move the frame with that push-in cage to a different hive.

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