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Thread: requeen failure

  1. #41
    Join Date
    May 2011
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    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
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    5,650

    Default Re: requeen failure

    Using the push in cage certainly was the right thing to do. Are you sure that queen is still in there or is she the one you saw sunning herself?
    Frank

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  3. #42
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aylett, Virginia
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    5,268

    Default Re: requeen failure



    Frank may have it right. Was your brand new queen also a marked Cordovan? Could be you have an empty push in cage and a queen strutting about.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    New Paltz, New York, USA
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    140

    Default Re: requeen failure

    Yup, I'm sure that was the round-1 Koehnen queen because the round-2 Olivarez queen was still in the push-in cage. Bees were on the cage fanning, so I think she was being accepted (oddly). Anyway I pinched a less desirable 2019 queen in a nuc and installed the push-in cage and frame there.

    End state is:

    * 4 nucs have new Olivarez queens (3 push-in cages and 1 three-hole cage), no queen cells, no funny business

    * 1 big colony apparently still has a Koehnen queen running around, all(?) queen cells destroyed

    * 1 big colony may still have their Koehnen queen, or may have killed her in preference for a virgin

    * 1 big colony has had no queen introduced and is very far along in swarm or supersedure preparations, I'm letting them do their own thing for now

    * 1 big colony had a Koehnen introduced, presumed dead, all(?) queen cells destroyed, and an Olivarez in a push-in cage, so could potentially have two laying queens and some virgins, lol

    Unless another queen goes sunbathing I plan to do *nothing* for 10 to 15 days. Hopefully the young queens, splits, brood break, and drawn comb will help with the swarming issues I've had in past springs.

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    hendersonville nc usa
    Posts
    105

    Default Re: requeen failure

    I think frank is right on, from my experince

  6. #45
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Trumbull, CT
    Posts
    435

    Default Re: requeen failure

    I don’t use anything but a push in cage. To many failures. I go in kill the queen and add the new one. I wait 4 days and see how the bees are treating her and if she started laying. If it looks good I release her and watch her for a minute. I’ve probably done 25 queens like this and haven’t lost one yet. A neighbor of mine could not get his bees to take a queen. On his 3rd try I made him a push in cage and it worked fine.

  7. #46
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    New Paltz, New York, USA
    Posts
    140

    Default Re: requeen failure

    Yeah I'm having good luck with the push-in cages too. My main problem now is that I need to get into a state where I know I've removed all the previous queens. You have to find all the queen cells, virgins, etc.

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Wakefield, Rhode Island, USA
    Posts
    485

    Default Re: requeen failure

    1 for 1 - trying the push-in cage with what initially appeared to be a damaged queen. She was installed in a drone laying queen's hive; drone laying queen was eliminated earlier. I found a new pattern of larva today and the smell of the hive has changed completely. The worker bees are really busy now - amazing change in character . She has enough workers and stores to get started. We will see how well this Carniolan performs. Thanks again for the reminder - very logical method.

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    8,241

    Default Re: requeen failure

    Now that she's laying, give the colony a frame of emerging brood

  10. #49
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    8,241

    Default Re: requeen failure

    Quote Originally Posted by cfalls View Post
    Yeah I'm having good luck with the push-in cages too. My main problem now is that I need to get into a state where I know I've removed all the previous queens. You have to find all the queen cells, virgins, etc.
    Well, you should clear the colony of cells when you de-queen the colony. At 4 days, before you remove the cage, check combs for eggs...of the second queen. It there are eggs, there's another queen. If no eggs, pull the cage. I've seen emergency sells started by day 4 when I pull the cage. Doesn't seem to matter. The marked queen is accepted anyway.

  11. #50
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Wakefield, Rhode Island, USA
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    485

    Default Re: requeen failure

    Will do.

  12. #51
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    New Paltz, New York, USA
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    140

    Default Re: requeen failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    Well, you should clear the colony of cells when you de-queen the colony. At 4 days, before you remove the cage, check combs for eggs...of the second queen. It there are eggs, there's another queen. If no eggs, pull the cage. I've seen emergency sells started by day 4 when I pull the cage. Doesn't seem to matter. The marked queen is accepted anyway.
    Thanks Mike, that makes sense. But couldn't there be another queen that isn't laying yet? I really appreciate you and others taking the time.

    Current state:

    * 4 nucs had marked laying queens, only 1 of which had queen cells, which I destroyed. Such a joy to work with nucs! They're drawing comb and doing good bee stuff.

    * 1 push-in cage in a "production" colony had a missing queen a few days ago, but I couldn't see how she could've escaped. Anyway today they seemed hopelessly queenless. Will introduce new push-in cage queen tomorrow. They could have a virgin I missed.

    * 1 push-in cage "production" colony now has a marked laying queen, but for some reason her wings are tattered now, and there were a few queen cells, which I destroyed. She was no longer piping. (A week ago this laying queen was piping, mysteriously. Possibly she was piping "at" a virgin and won the fight?)

    * 1 "production" colony had no eggs or open brood, and a few queen cells. On a bottom side frame I found a virgin (I'm 99% sure) but within a few seconds a worker acted aggressive towards her and she flew away! At that point I lost sight of her so not sure if she came back or went out to mate or what. What's that about?

    Overall, my hives are full of super watery nectar, so I need to add space and give them ventilation to evaporate off all that water. Unfortunately I'm out of drawn comb. Maybe I can move brood frames from the nucs to the production hives to keep the population up for the June flow.

    Question: How do you tell the difference between a hopelessly queenless hive and a hive with a virgin? This matters a lot because I think a hopelessly queenless hive is the best kind of hive to introduce a queen to, while a hive with virgins is basically the worst!

  13. #52
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Salem, Oregon
    Posts
    1,840

    Default Re: requeen failure

    Cfalls, just for fun why don't you give this a shot and see how things work out next time.:
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...roduction-tips

    We've been through boxes of queens this year making divides and nucs and only one not accepted (so far).
    Good luck.
    I have exactly ONE more hive than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond dispute!

  14. #53
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Scott county, Arkansas, Usa
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    1,719

    Default Re: requeen failure

    Cfalls, I know this is a small sample, but I used Harry's method and I had 4 out of 4 @ten days.

    Alex

    Edit; Oh yeah, it was my first time installing purchased Queens.
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  15. #54
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    New Paltz, New York, USA
    Posts
    140

    Default Re: requeen failure

    Harry, I probably will, as that's just the totally normal method almost everyone uses. I assume its high success rate is contingent on not having virgins or capped queen cells. That's my issue -- getting back to a completely queenless state so I can introduce the new queen.

    While I'm in this unfortunate state, the push-in cage is really saving me. The big disadvantage I see is that the frame I grab from another hive usually has a few eggs on it, and the hive I'm requeening will use those eggs to create queen cells. If all the queen cells were on that one frame it would be easy, but they're moving the eggs all over the place. I have to shake bees off all 20 brood frames to remove them. I should probably go through the super frames too because there are cups up there -- haven't found any cells yet, though.

    Between my 5 hives, I'm destroying about 50 or 100 queen cells per week. If they have a queen they're trying to swarm, and if they don't they're trying to make one. Either way, cells everywhere.

  16. #55
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    New Paltz, New York, USA
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    140

    Default Re: requeen failure

    Today (May 24) I looked to see how the three-hole caged queens were doing since being introduced on May 16. In every case, no eggs, no cells, just hopelessly queenless. I don't understand why they'd reject that queen when they had no other option. The only deviation from Harvey's method was waiting 8 days instead of 10, but I doubt that was the issue.

    Today I newspaper combined them with nucs that had marked laying queens, hoping to avoid laying workers.

    To recap:

    colony type introduction failures successes
    production three-hole 7 1
    production push-in 1 1
    nuc three-hole 0 1
    nuc push-in 0 3

    We'll see how my success rate is with these newspaper combines. If they kill the queens in the nucs I don't know what to try next.

  17. #56
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Penobscot County, ME, USA
    Posts
    1,240

    Default Re: requeen failure

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    I have heard, but have no firsthand knowlege, that some sub-species of bees are not inclined to accept a queen of another sub-species. Russians and Italians come to mind.
    I have never experienced any difficulties with this. So far (knock wood) I have had a 100% acceptance rate...but it is an admittedly small sample size, dozens as opposed to hundreds or thousands.
    If you want to be successful, study successful people and do what they do.
    Zone 4a/b

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