Possible recommended OA vaporizer dosage changes - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Possible recommended OA vaporizer dosage changes

    I honestly think that the mode of OAV application makes a BIG difference as well.

    For example, the Easy Vap or the ProVap110 are obviously better than sticking a "fire wand" in the bottom board.

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  3. #22
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    Apr 2005
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    Salem, Oregon
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    Default Re: Possible recommended OA vaporizer dosage changes

    More is better.
    The instructions say otherwise, but I disagree.
    Also, The most important thing I have found is that regular treatments DURING ROBBING PERIODS, that is to say, when your strong healthy hives are robbing out all of neighboring, crashing, "treatment free" hives and bringing back a stream of mites.
    No matter what you have done prior to a robbing period, regular treatments are the only way to keep things under control.
    In my area, this period typically begins in early to mid August and lasts until fall rain begins.
    The days of "A fall treatment" is over.
    Here is a quote fromMites of THE Honey Bee by Webster & Deleplane:
    Chapter 10, page 136 Stephen J. Martin:
    "Sakofski showed that 35% of the mites can be transferred into the robbing colony via the robber bees picking up mites or infested robbed bees which desert their hive and return with robber bees."

    Therefore I believe that weekly (at least) oav is necessary in my area during the robbing period regardless of other mite control measures previously conducted in the year.
    Also, testing is worthless during this period. If you want to chase your tail, go ahead and test during the robbing period.
    I can save you some time and give you the results right now:
    "HOLY COW are my mite loads spiking!!!"
    I have exactly ONE more hive than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond dispute!

  4. #23

    Default Re: Possible recommended OA vaporizer dosage changes

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    I'm fascinated by why a TF beekeeper is looking for any opportunity to bad-mouth what must be the most simplistic, economical - and from the bees' point of view - the safest treatment for Varroa mites (when applied correctly of course) when compared with current alternatives.
    OAD is far better than OAV. (My view! )
    Im just concerned about the heath of beekeepers doing over 10 treatments couple days apart, not to speak about the lost time running on their yards all the time. And makes me wonder why this kind of attacks on me (and for instance msl) when discussion about OAV problems start.

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Or is it that you actually favour the use of commercial systemic miticides ? Because, from what you have previously posted - it would certainly appear so:
    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    My rule of thumb has always been: what the profs use is good for a hobby beekeeper, but not vica versa.
    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post

    Extraordinary. I'm wondering why you haven't seen fit to post that sentiment over on the TF sub-forum ?

    Im happy to post this on TF sub forum at any time. It is a general rule, not only about treatments.
    Last edited by Juhani Lunden; 04-27-2020 at 08:44 AM.

  5. #24
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    Wakefield, Rhode Island, USA
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    Default Re: Possible recommended OA vaporizer dosage changes

    Now you can appreciate the margin of error built into the scientific recommendation and the EPA specified 1 gram per brood chamber. After OAV's performance last Fall in my apiary, 13,759 dead varroa by count and now over-wintering with 9 for 9 alive, I am forced to conclude there is some decent efficacy but it is not as efficient as I would like.

    It would be nice if OAV was a Silver Bullet and killed all Varroa in one treatment. Maybe the solution for Florida beekeepers is to bring their hives up North for the winter treatment

    BTW, I have absolutely no faith in alcohol wash techniques as a useful, sensitive indicator of varroa infestation levels. Counting dead varroa is a clear indicator or so it seems to me. An example is offerred:2019 Varroa.jpg

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Possible recommended OA vaporizer dosage changes


  7. #26
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    Salem, Oregon
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    Default Re: Possible recommended OA vaporizer dosage changes

    Another comment / question about "More is better" maybe one of you know the answer:
    For a given vaporizer, I have a hunch that there is a MAXIMUM amount of crystals that can be sublimated in a given bowel design.
    Beyond that amount, the additional crystals are just spewed out prior to sublimation.
    Anyone know if this is true?
    I have some very fine stainless steel screen that I could make a filter of and run some tests.
    The question would be, "What is the maximum amount of OA crystals that a Provap 110 can sublimate per shot?"
    I have exactly ONE more hive than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond dispute!

  8. #27
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    Sep 2016
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    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
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    Default Re: Possible recommended OA vaporizer dosage changes

    We don't have any studys showing us more is better, in fact what we do has says it matters little with OAV
    Toufailia - ‎2015 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...9.2015.1106777
    by drop



    by wash



    The most important thing I have found is that regular treatments DURING ROBBING PERIODS, that is to say, when your strong healthy hives are robbing out all of neighboring, crashing, "treatment free" hives and bringing back a stream of mites.
    Yep, Dribble is my go 2 for fall re invasion, my main yard gets crushed by mite bombs (guy next to me keeps about 20 and regulay takes 75% losses ) it kills for 2 weeks not 2-3 days like OAV. Cuts way down on the amount of trips to the yards
    "oh well, let us stick to science. let them have their beliefs and intuitions!" -Medhat Nasr

  9. #28
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    Apr 2019
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    Default Re: Possible recommended OA vaporizer dosage changes

    Just remember, not all oxalic acid is created equally.

    The bucket of wood bleach on Amazon has zero quality control testing.

  10. #29

    Default Re: Possible recommended OA vaporizer dosage changes

    I haven’t read the entire thread but I have to tell you that I have never heard a PhD researcher use the phrase ‘totally worthless’.
    Who is this Carmeron Jack? Did he link his study?
    I believe that I’m calling baloney.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  11. #30
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    Default

    I respectfully disagree on some points here.

    First, I used 2 gram dose on double deeps and 4 stack of mediums for years with 100 percent survival.

    Also, I used a wand for 4 years with no problems. 100% efficacy

    And I picked up some generic OA before I found the Florida Labs stuff. It worked wonderfully. And if you check Amazon their 'Amazon's Choice' OA is Florida Labs.

    Just my experience. I don't want to start an argument with anyone.

    These threads are very informative.

    Thanks everyone.

  12. #31
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    Aylett, Virginia
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    Default Re: Possible recommended OA vaporizer dosage changes

    I cannot speak to the effacy of the various brands of OA. I purchased mine from Florida Labs and it has served me very well. I can understand OAV being impactical if one had to treat 1000+ hives every couple of days for several weeks, but to suggest that a properly timed and applied treatment regimen is ineffective is simply wrong. Perhaps you should tell my bees that they are all dead and should not be expanding so rapidly.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  13. #32
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    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
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    Default Re: Possible recommended OA vaporizer dosage changes

    Can anybody Phd or whatever deny that oxalic acid crystals kill mites, It is my understanding that crystals on the mites feet or anywhere on the mites body leads to its death within hours. It is assumed that the foundress mite on emerging from the cell can shortly invade another for another breeding cycle, not so for the 2 immature females that the foundress has raised in the last breeding cycle. How long do these young females remain phoretic until they are ready to breed as they are the ones that are prime targets for the OAV treatments. So at the end of the day it becomes a matter of getting those crystals onto the mites that are either maturing or are between cells and a series of 3 treatments 7 days apart is not going to do the job of eliminating a large percentage of an infested colonies mites, Man I give my colonies 3 treatments when they are broodless, for me I am after every last one if I can. Depending on your situation and possible influx of mites from other colonies one needs to do multiple treatments 3 to 4 days apart until you see no more mites fall and then go back a few weeks later and try again and just remember a dose of OAV is just as good as any other test except that it is quicker kills no bees and kills more mites,

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Possible recommended OA vaporizer dosage changes

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    I haven’t read the entire thread but I have to tell you that I have never heard a PhD researcher use the phrase ‘totally worthless’.
    Who is this Carmeron Jack? Did he link his study?
    I believe that I’m calling baloney.
    I pick up on some conversation on another forum about Mr Jacks study. I contacted Cameron Jack and asked him about his in progress study. I asked permission to share his email. Mr. Jack is pro OAV but is looking for a better way/legal dose to put in legal statutes where required. Mr. Jack has posted NOTHING.

    sc-bee

  15. #34

    Default Re: Possible recommended OA vaporizer dosage changes

    Quote Originally Posted by sc-bee View Post
    Mr. Jack has posted NOTHING.

    Jack is his surname. OK.

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Possible recommended OA vaporizer dosage changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnie View Post
    I respectfully disagree on some points here.

    First, I used 2 gram dose on double deeps and 4 stack of mediums for years with 100 percent survival.

    Also, I used a wand for 4 years with no problems. 100% efficacy

    And I picked up some generic OA before I found the Florida Labs stuff. It worked wonderfully. And if you check Amazon their 'Amazon's Choice' OA is Florida Labs.

    Just my experience. I don't want to start an argument with anyone.

    These threads are very informative.

    Thanks everyone.
    You may have had success with generic brands, but I would strongly advise against this course of action.

    Stick with trusted sources of OA, preferably laboratory grade OA.

    OA is not expensive, it's worth spending the extra $5 on a lab grade OA than a cheap bucket of wood bleach imported from who-knows-what-country.

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Possible recommended OA vaporizer dosage changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    Jack is his surname. OK.

    Actually where I am from/live he could be Mr. Jack, Mr. Cameron, or Mr. Jack Cameron. You may not like it Mr. Juhani but that is just the way it is

    Maybe you have something to add to the thread other than petty comments
    sc-bee

  18. #37

    Default Re: Possible recommended OA vaporizer dosage changes

    Quote Originally Posted by sc-bee View Post
    Maybe you have something to add to the thread other than petty comments
    ???

    Believe it or not, I really want to learn his name.

  19. #38

    Default Re: Possible recommended OA vaporizer dosage changes

    Quote Originally Posted by sc-bee View Post

    Maybe you have something to add to the thread other than petty comments

    ...and it seems I have contributed more than appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Yet another troll post from a TF enthusiast ...

  20. #39
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    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
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    Default Re: Possible recommended OA vaporizer dosage changes

    I find this discussion on oxalic acid interesting. I suggest we not dampen it with unneeded sharp language amongst ourselves. The tone was set to some degree by the imprecise and exaggerated phrase "totally useless" by the author of the quoted letters. Everyone posting is familiar with ploy of hyperbole: I am sure we have all used it to some degree

    I am quite happy with OA but know its limitations in some scenarios but we need not give it such a black eye in general. I think the author should have stated things in neutral terms. Perhaps the label could be changed but if our personal adjustment of the recommendation gets the desired result, is it worth the effort and expense.

    For dang sure all regulatory bodies the world over have a lot bigger fish to fry at the moment!
    Frank

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Possible recommended OA vaporizer dosage changes

    here is the paper in question
    https://academic.oup.com/jee/article.../2/582/5697464

    we dissused it in another thread...now it looks to be behind a pay wall here were my thoughts ans some qoates from when it was up


    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    "In general, colonies with caged queens had statistically lower mite fall levels than colonies with uncaged queens starting from day 24 (P = 0.032) and continuing throughout the rest of the experiment (days 31, 35, and 62P < 0.001). However, we did not observe any significant differences in mite fall during the OA treatment periods (days 8, 16, and 24) between colonies with caged and uncaged queens that were treated one"

    they did not see a difference in mite drops between broodless and brood on hives ... this suggests there is a huge problem with the OA's effectiveness in this experiment
    a conculstion they also reached
    " colonies receiving three applications of OA still had high mortality rates and colony strengths similar to those of untreated colonies. Our inability to control Varroa effectively regardless of OA treatment suggests that the current labeled dose of 1 g per brood chamber was ineffective, at least under the conditions we maintained in our study."
    late summer mites loads, brood on... only 3 OAV treatments and no folow up. any one else suprized the hives failed?

    What is surprising is the brood break hive/oav hives dropped the same amount of mites.

    so that leads us to 2 possibly coulstions .. OAV's effectiveness is impacted by the test site condistions (high temp and humidy, etc ) or there was a flaw in the data/ experiment design

    the went with the former and then blamed the dose size... witch I find inserting given the set up.
    they made no effort to scientifically determine mite loads per and post treatment. No washes, no colonly euthistion and coun't of mite left, no testing of any kind to show the % of poretic mites killed
    sticky boards are just slightly better then tea leaves, we have know this for years and years.. (for the latest see https://tvbabees.org/resources/Docum...gITVu29wZcVUFo)
    In the paper they harp on that they couldn't test a higher dose as it would be against the (label) law to do so, and then they go against the law and treat late summer while hives a brooded up..
    and there brood break? why a 24 day cageing, seems an unnecessary impact on the colony
    It feels like they did this as fast and cheep as could be done

    Realy there is nothing here but questions, the only 2 real results we already knew
    A-3 weekly OAVs with brood on and late summer mite levels will not give sufficient contoral
    B-a Sept brood break is a bad idea in most places
    "oh well, let us stick to science. let them have their beliefs and intuitions!" -Medhat Nasr

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