The "bonded" Gotland bees lose there mite resistance in the F-2 generation
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  1. #1
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    Default The "bonded" Gotland bees lose there mite resistance in the F-2 generation

    Odemer (2020) Reproductive capacity of varroa destructor in four different honey bee subspecies https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...640?via%3Dihub
    For the F2 generation of the surviving population from Gotland however, we had expected a different outcome. The Gotland bees have developed an apparent reduced mite reproductive success trait that is either inheritable from paternal, maternal or both sides in the F1 generation (Locke, 2016b). Our results provide evidence that this trait seems to fade out by further generational change, once more making the colonies susceptible to Varroosis.
    speaks to just how fast traits are lost with outcrosing
    "oh well, let us stick to science. let them have their beliefs and intuitions!" -Medhat Nasr

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: The "bonded" Gotland bees lose there mite resistance in the F-2 generation

    This is a good read, MSL.

    By this same token, why the beekeepers keep "breeding" their bees for less swarming, more honey, less defensiveness, yadda, yadda?
    A common line you read over and over - "breed from that queen because she is not swarmy".

    None of this breeding makes sense because of "how fast traits are lost with out-crossing" (unless you are THE breeder, I suppose).
    Exact same idea should apply to most any trait.

    No?
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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    Default Re: The "bonded" Gotland bees lose there mite resistance in the F-2 generation

    If you can't control both sides of the reproductive equation, trying to maintain certain traits in any species is a futile attempt or at best a shot in the dark. The only way to control both sides of the equation with honeybees is through AI due to the way the honeybee breeds. But hey, I'm just a DA redneck from Alabama so what do I know
    Dan

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    Default Re: The "bonded" Gotland bees lose there mite resistance in the F-2 generation

    I see the reverse, it shows just how important selection/breeding is
    "breeding" bees is beyond most, witch is why requeening with bought queens has been the SOP to maintain a apiary's traits.
    Some one with enuff hives can easy practice stock selection, Taking a colony that is strongly expressing a trait you like(or buy a breeder queen) and re queening form them..
    a year or 2 down the road you have picked a new breeder and repeat. This is how you keep traits at an apiary level.
    sadly this is showing(lock2016b was looking good in the f-1) how fast "natural" selection(20 years untreated) is undone in bees, this suggests this method will not be a viably source of exportabul gentinces.

    but human selection, human selection can be much stronger then natural. We see this in traits like hygienic behavior being selected to be expressed much higher then in nature every trait has a cost, and nature often selects for just enough to get by (as a species) if the need for hygienic behavior arises in a out break, some will live.. but with human selection we can increase the expression of the trait to be many times stronger than nature, and therefore it survives more out crossing.

    If you can't control both sides of the reproductive equation, trying to maintain certain traits in any species is a futile attempt
    disagree.. Swarmy hives tend to make swarmy queens, hot hives tend to make hot queens
    The only way to control both sides of the equation with honeybees is through AI due to the way the honeybee breeds
    What about isolated mating stations, moonlight mating, drone saturation ?
    "oh well, let us stick to science. let them have their beliefs and intuitions!" -Medhat Nasr

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    Default Re: The "bonded" Gotland bees lose there mite resistance in the F-2 generation

    Quote Originally Posted by WaverlyBees View Post
    If you can't control both sides of the reproductive equation, trying to maintain certain traits in any species is a futile attempt or at best a shot in the dark. The only way to control both sides of the equation with honeybees is through AI due to the way the honeybee breeds. But hey, I'm just a DA redneck from Alabama so what do I know
    And yet, I read just few threads over right now:
    I have a store bought queen that just got through her 3rd winter and never made a swarm cell. I'm grafting off of her this year' just wonder if that will help with that.
    So why would one do that - graft off the non-swarmy queen so to breed non-swarmy bees in back-yard environment?


    In fact, we read a plenty reputable advice how one should be selecting their "best bees" and propagate from them - all of this in the uncontrolled back-yard conditions.
    Plenty of such advice right on the BS.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  7. #6
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    Default Re: The "bonded" Gotland bees lose there mite resistance in the F-2 generation

    "oh well, let us stick to science. let them have their beliefs and intuitions!" -Medhat Nasr

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    Default Re: The "bonded" Gotland bees lose there mite resistance in the F-2 generation

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    I see the reverse, it shows just how important selection/breeding is
    "breeding" bees is beyond most, witch is why requeening with bought queens has been the SOP to maintain a apiary's traits.
    Some one with enuff hives can easy practice stock selection, Taking a colony that is strongly expressing a trait you like(or buy a breeder queen) and re queening form them..
    a year or 2 down the road you have picked a new breeder and repeat. This is how you keep traits at an apiary level.
    sadly this is showing(lock2016b was looking good in the f-1) how fast "natural" selection(20 years untreated) is undone in bees, this suggests this method will not be a viably source of exportabul gentinces.

    but human selection, human selection can be much stronger then natural. We see this in traits like hygienic behavior being selected to be expressed much higher then in nature every trait has a cost, and nature often selects for just enough to get by (as a species) if the need for hygienic behavior arises in a out break, some will live.. but with human selection we can increase the expression of the trait to be many times stronger than nature, and therefore it survives more out crossing.


    disagree.. Swarmy hives tend to make swarmy queens, hot hives tend to make hot queens

    What about isolated mating stations, moonlight mating, drone saturation ?
    Yes, I agree that certain traits can be carried on to daughter queens, but unless you can control the drone side of the equation these traits will most likely be diminished with each successive breeding. Is controlling the drone side possible? Absolutely! But it's out of the reach of the vast majority of beekeepers. Are gentle traits always passed on from queen to queen or does the drone impact those traits for better or worse? If you have a virgin queen from a known gentle queen breed with a drone from a very aggressive queen, which trait is passed on or is it a mix. Will the next generation of queen from this now mated queen be hot or calm? Would it make more sense to focus more of our efforts on controlling the drone genes since they only get the traits of the queen whereas the queens genes are diluted by those of an unknown drone?

    Look guys, I am way in over my head on this subject. I don't raise my own queens at this point but I do have plans to start in the near future. But I look at this from a basic math problem even though I know its more complicated than that. I certainly don't know the answers to the questions I raised, I simply asked in hopes of getting a better understanding of queen rearing and I appreciate the feedback.
    Dan

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    Default Re: The "bonded" Gotland bees lose there mite resistance in the F-2 generation

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    And yet, I read just few threads over right now:


    So why would one do that - graft off the non-swarmy queen so to breed non-swarmy bees in back-yard environment?


    In fact, we read a plenty reputable advice how one should be selecting their "best bees" and propagate from them - all of this in the uncontrolled back-yard conditions.
    Plenty of such advice right on the BS.
    Greg, that's kind of my point. Most beekeepers have no way of controlling the drones their queens are mated with. I certainly don't. I live in a rural area and I have no idea what the beekeeper down the road is doing with his/her bees and so I can't control their drone genetics. Even if all the beekeepers within a 5 mile radius got together and worked to develop both queen and drone traits, that 5 mile radius can still be influenced by outside drones, so where does it stop?

    Again, I'm just attempting to apply logic to a complicated subject and that doesn't always work and I'm trying to learn more about this subject hence my continued statements and questions.
    Dan

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    Default Re: The "bonded" Gotland bees lose there mite resistance in the F-2 generation

    Quote Originally Posted by WaverlyBees View Post
    Greg, that's kind of my point. ....
    Exactly.
    I knew it.

    Overall, the only constant is the uncertainty.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  11. #10
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    Default Re: The "bonded" Gotland bees lose there mite resistance in the F-2 generation

    I think most people would conclude that the prospects are a lot better IF you can control drone genetics as well. Also that it would be quite hard on a small scale to make changes if there is an overwhelming presence of bees with a decidedly unwanted characteristics. Like say you are in an area commonly used as a holding area for bees off almonds and you are trying to encourage bees displaying traits more often found in russian, carniolan or caucasion bees. You might get lucky but the math is working against you.
    Frank

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    Default Re: The "bonded" Gotland bees lose there mite resistance in the F-2 generation

    Ok, here's another question. Let's say you have the ability to control both queen and drone genetics, how concerned do we need to be about inbreeding? If inbreeding is generally a concern, and I believe it is, how big of a math problem does this get to be? How many generations removed from the original queen and drone do we need to be to not consider it inbreeding?
    Dan

  13. #12
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    Default Re: The "bonded" Gotland bees lose there mite resistance in the F-2 generation

    Yes, I agree that certain traits can be carried on to daughter queens, but unless you can control the drone side of the equation these traits will most likely be diminished with each successive breeding.
    correct, that is why you re queen with daughters of a colony that is highly expressing what you looking for, with the under standing it will get watered down by F-2+.. That's the difference between a breeder queen(F-0) and a production queen (F-1)

    how big of a math problem does this get to be?
    http://www.capabees.com/shared/2013/...ingprogram.pdf
    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...nalCode=tbee20

    There are very good reasons why buying replacement (production) queens from a breeder every few years has long been the standard for the smaller beekeeper to keep traits like honey production in the apiary.
    "oh well, let us stick to science. let them have their beliefs and intuitions!" -Medhat Nasr

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    Default Re: The "bonded" Gotland bees lose there mite resistance in the F-2 generation

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    Odemer (2020) Reproductive capacity of varroa destructor in four different honey bee subspecies https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...640?via%3Dihub


    speaks to just how fast traits are lost with outcrosing
    Became interested in the current status of the "Gotland" project.
    After some Googling, here it is:
    The Gotland population comprised 20 to 30 colonies in 2015 (Locke, 2016). It is still monitored for
    research purposes, although it is not used commercially. Due to the increasing density of nonresistant
    colonies in the surrounding environment, the experimental population recently
    experienced increasing infestation levels and, from 2017 on wards, it was treated as a
    precautionary measure in order to decrease the risk of losing a stock of such scientific
    importance (Dietemann and Locke, 2019). Although it is not known whether this population
    would have perished without these treatments, the unusual increase in infestation rates raises
    a question concerning the long-term resilience of populations that have been through such a
    severe bottleneck.
    From: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...s_and_Strategy
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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    Default Re: The "bonded" Gotland bees lose there mite resistance in the F-2 generation

    Good find !!!!
    sad news, but good info
    maby this will help some people get off the "natural selection" idea and focus on the reality's of beekeeping
    "oh well, let us stick to science. let them have their beliefs and intuitions!" -Medhat Nasr

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    Default Re: The "bonded" Gotland bees lose there mite resistance in the F-2 generation

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    correct, that is why you re queen with daughters of a colony that is highly expressing what you looking for, with the under standing it will get watered down by F-2+.. That's the difference between a breeder queen(F-0) and a production queen (F-1)
    I agree and think this is good practice, I just wanted to make sure that the new beekeepers understand the realities of trying to breed certain traits across generations of bees.



    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    There are very good reasons why buying replacement (production) queens from a breeder every few years has long been the standard for the smaller beekeeper to keep traits like honey production in the apiary.
    This is what I have practiced up to this point and have had fairly good results, but I'm getting to the point in my journey that I'm ready to add another aspect of beekeeping and queen rearing is next on the list. I do plan to continue to add outside queens on a regular basis to maintain A diverse pool of genes.
    Dan

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    Default Re: The "bonded" Gotland bees lose there mite resistance in the F-2 generation

    Gotland is also a small population of mites. What may have been happening was natural selection for a variety of slightly less dangerous mite. When the population of prey (bees) is very low, it doesn't do the predator much good to kill them all off. So maybe the Gotland bees are more resistant but only to the Gotland mites.

  18. #17
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    Default Re: The "bonded" Gotland bees lose there mite resistance in the F-2 generation

    Quote Originally Posted by AR1 View Post
    Gotland is also a small population of mites. What may have been happening was natural selection for a variety of slightly less dangerous mite. When the population of prey (bees) is very low, it doesn't do the predator much good to kill them all off. So maybe the Gotland bees are more resistant but only to the Gotland mites.
    From reading the article on mite resistance (or tolerance) it appears there is a wide range of mechanisms or combinations responsible. Add that to specific local conditions and it sure makes it difficult to put your finger on what to pursue. After achieving survival you may have another whole selection process to get rid of undesirables such as temperament, excessive swarmyness or productivity issues. An equation in multi, multi, unknowns.
    Frank

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