OA Vapor & Dribble brood mortality - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Default Re: OA Vapor & Dribble brood mortality

    Well Msl I do think you are jousting at windmills. All the dire predictions could happen; many bad things could happen but we cannot be on guard against every possibility without losing our sanity. We have to attempt a reason appraisal of odds we are comfortable with and go with it. The amount of years and the nature of the killing mechanism with these acids with no sign of resistance (in any well credited test) makes that possibility very remote. I am comfortable with that assessment.

    There is a possibility; some say a certainty that the tropilaeleps mite(sp.?) is on its way. That is probably a much stronger possibility than the risk of varroa becoming resistant to the physical damage of these organic acids. Much of what humans are doing today is very unwise. The problem we are facing to day is an example of removing geographic isolation of pestilence.

    Like I said, I think there are greater dragons to slay.
    Frank

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  3. #62
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    Default Re: OA Vapor & Dribble brood mortality

    How does one argue that something is impossible with someone who is doing it? St. George has nothing on Don Quixote.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  4. #63
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    Default Re: OA Vapor & Dribble brood mortality

    That is probably a much stronger possibility than the risk of varroa becoming resistant to the physical damage of these organic acids.
    Frank that's the problem, look at all the stuff I have sited in this thread alone... all of them put the mode of action as a poison, not a hammer
    "resistance will not be an issue. It'd be like a cockroach becoming resistant to a hammer" Jennifer Berry once said.. The hammer is what stuck in peoples minds, and despite it not proving out under scientific scrutiny, every one remembers it and repeats it on the internet..

    like wize Gerhard Brüning's work showing OAV get's absorbed in to the mites blood stream threw the foot pads and kills the mites via poison became twisted on the internet game of telephone in to "it burns there feet off, how can they develop Resistance to that"

    https://oxavap.com/pictures/
    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    From Gerhard Bruening..........
    Oxalic acid uptake:
    In the reports at hand, the effects of oxalic acid on varroa mites have been studied over a period of 12 years with simple methods. When feeding bees with honey syrup it was apparent that bees refrain from ingesting oxalic acid with the food and thereby that oxalic acid uptake by the varroa cannot happen via the bees system. When examining the feet (tarsus) of fallen-off but still alive mites under a microscope, major accumulations of oxalic acid crystals could be found at the outermost segment of the tarsus with the moist adhesive pad. The mites died within 24 hours of the examination. During this time it was noticeable that the oxalic acid crystals at the adhesive pad of the mites dissolved and penetrated the pad. This was accompanied by a simultaneous cease in life signs in the mites. This observation leads to the hypothesis that oxalic acid crystals are collected in great numbers with the adhesive pads on the mites feet, where they then dissolve within a few hours and penetrate the body of the varroa via the membranes in the adhesive pads. This hypothesis is also supported by the fact that the same observation can be made, regardless of the method of application (spraying, trickling or vaporizing).
    you probably right that attempting to correct internet falsehoods that keep getting repeated is jousting at windmills (FMGO still keeps poping up).. but thought I would give it a shot so people can make(thier own) informed management decisions.
    Believing the mites are killed by "physical damage" from OA is not an informed position that is backed by the research. I find it interesting how much push back people are putting up to the truth, yet they have zero backing of facts or study's to support their end.
    Some times the OAV hardcores are a lot like the TF types and react quite negatively When you atemp to shine the light of science on their "understanding" of things....
    As I have said before, chaff left unchallenged is one of the biggest problems for new beekeepers but hey at least I tried

    I wish I knew why (haveing fallen in to the TF trap in my early years) beekeeping generates passion and belief systems on the magnitude religion or politics, there an interesting case study here
    Last edited by msl; 04-13-2020 at 06:58 PM.
    "oh well, let us stick to science. let them have their beliefs and intuitions!" -Medhat Nasr

  5. #64
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    Default Re: OA Vapor & Dribble brood mortality

    I wish I knew why (haveing fallen in to the TF trap in my early years) beekeeping generates passion and belief systems on the magnitude religion or politics, there an interesting case study here
    Only for some.
    Into one trap, out, then into another. In perpetuum.

  6. #65
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    Default Re: OA Vapor & Dribble brood mortality

    Msl;

    I never said that development of resistance to the organic acids was impossible, but it certainly is not inevitable. My feeling is that you consider it far higher odds for it developing and build a case for it. The odds against or for either might be equal for all I know but extremely small risk is not something to spend inordinate effort to prevent.

    I consider poison to be physical damage. I think that some of the truths you describe seem to be supported by rather obscure experiments. I dont see much in the way of independent repeatability of findings. Quite a bit of "could have been caused by; due to the small sample size etc." disclaimers. Undoubtedly I have not read as many of them as you have but that was not one of my hot buttons. I just have not seen enough evidence yet to lead me down that trail.

    I would like to hear the story sometime about how you got led down the TF path. I take you generally for a pretty discerning and pragmatic person.

    I never was tugged in that direction. I have a great aversion to accepting anything that requires a leap of faith or where acceptance of analogies seem necessary to carry the story line.

    If and when I start to hear credible claims that OA is starting to incur resistance I will get more religious about rotating it but I have an aversion to the synthesized organophosphates or whatever classification coumaphos, fluvalinate, Amitraz etc. belong. Perhaps its a case of "The familiar devil is the lesser evil!"
    Frank

  7. #66

    Default Re: OA Vapor & Dribble brood mortality

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    Dose response... to be clear I miss qoated... it was 2.8-7.2 over control, witch was close, but not the same as the difrence between the 2 test groups From https://www.researchgate.net/publica...d_A_study_caseAttachment 54497
    We see that one group had almost no effect compared to control, and one population had more resistance.

    Not until now I managed to get the study paper open. I missed the right button...


    OK.
    They used very low concentrations, and applied OA on mites in a Petri dish.


    Now I understand.

  8. #67

    Default Re: OA Vapor & Dribble brood mortality

    One observation, no scientific value:

    I get more and more phone calls from beekeepers interested in my resistant stock. And usually the story goes that mites have become a problem they no longer can handle.

    More treatments, and still more problems. Hives dying. Yards dying.

    In Finland OA, formic acid and thymol are the most used treatments. Almost all Finnish beekeepers have been using them at least 20 years.

  9. #68
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    Default Re: OA Vapor & Dribble brood mortality

    Frank that's the problem, look at all the stuff I have sited in this thread alone... all of them put the mode of action as a poison, not a hammer
    That's an example of the 'single-variable thinking' I keep banging-on about.

    The phrase which is invariably employed is: "... supports the hypothesis" - which is fine - but that is NOT the same as saying "NOT a hammer" - unless of course an individual has already decided (= pre-judice) that only one mode of action can possibly be responsible.

    "Only around 12 percent of mites displayed cuticular damage as observed under a dissecting microscope."
    "Only" - why use such a word ? That's part of a single-variable sales-pitch.

    "These findings support the hypothesis that OA acts via contact toxicity on varroa mites rather than the OA crystals causing structural damage."
    Again, such wording is attempting to sell the idea of a single mode of action. Why not multiple modes of action ? Is that such an unreasonable idea ?

    "The authors suggested that this could be due to metabolic disturbances and changes in the bees’ hemolymph affecting the survival of the mites, which are tightly adapted to their hosts."
    Does such wording not put much of that report in doubt ?


    Finely powdered sugar dislodges mites - I believe reasonably effectively, although I've never done this myself. How does it do that ? Is that mode of action analogous to that of the fine microcrystalline dust of Vapourised Oxalic Acid ?
    I've yet to read a totally persuasive explanation of how Oxalic Acid kills mites. I'd really like to know that, but in the meanwhile I'm more than happy to use that substance in the same way as people over the centuries have used Jesuit's Bark as a remedy for malaria, without knowing exactly how it worked.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  10. #69
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    Default Re: OA Vapor & Dribble brood mortality

    The latest research that I could not find is from Ramesh Sagili Phd from the University of Oregon. If you google that you will find his research.

  11. #70
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    Default Re: OA Vapor & Dribble brood mortality

    I don't disagree with any of that LJ, it may still be an hammer, but the hammer hypothesis is lacking supporting data and we have a mountain of info to the contrary .. either way the point was we can't say "its a hammer and they will never be resistant to a hammer" as that's not an accurate statement or even a reasonable informed one, and can lead people to poor management dissistions when it keeps getting repeated.
    All of the wording you are taking issue with comes from the US EPA report, not the studys. For me it dosn't put the studys in doubt... the only thing the rebuts science is better science.
    I often talk about following the trend, not just one study.. the trend is its not a hammer. Now if some studys pop up showing it is hammer, burns there face and legs off, gets between the shells joints like DE etc then that bring in the doubt, if any one has anything like that, please send it to me

    side note I have often wondered if OAV "dusting" as happens when you vape a hive causes grooming like sugar dusting

    Frank I am not saying resistance is inevitable, just that we don't know enuf to say "it can never happen" as is often repeated, I am trying to stop the parroting of bad info, the same as many would do if some one started talking FGMO, same as I did when people started talking OA fogger cures

    If and when I start to hear credible claims that OA is starting to incur resistance I will get more religious about rotating it but I have an aversion to the synthesized organophosphates
    by then, its too late. It doesn't matter what you do as a small beekeeper, it matters what the industry does.
    to that point Sammataro EtAl 2005 https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ce_of_esterase

    . Results of a survey of mites from the Carl Hayden AZ lab and from cooperators in five locations (Arizona, California, Florida, Maine, North Dakota) showed that some mites were susceptible to all three acaricides (Amitraz, Coumaphos, Fluvalinate) in the spring of 2003, but by fall most mites were resistant. Mites were resistant to all chemicals, even from beekeepers that do not treat colonies with acaricides
    emphasis is mine, even the TF people ended up with resistant mites! Its a landscape scale thing, not a keeper by keeper thing

    for the most part once there is a resistance problem, we don't get the chemical back, the trait becomes fixed in the mite population do to lack of out breeding. unless of corce there is a mal adaptation to survival in the absence of that cemicals use, but that's not what we are seeing(IE resistant mite in TF hives), we are not seeing cems mites became resistant to regain there historic effectiveness.. we have not seen a chemical the mites are becoming resistant to be "saved" by rotation after the warning flags go up... we just move too many bees (mites) form place to place.

    IE https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0227264
    We are starting to see pockets of amitraz failure, is there a lot of chatter about it? are beekeepers taking action and changing their ways?

    The latest research that I could not find is from Ramesh Sagili
    perhaps this?
    https://tvbabees.org/resources/Docum...Feb25_2020.pdf
    there is a bit more detial here on page 22
    https://westernapiculturalsociety.or...al-reduced.pdf

    it a good find,( 1st time I have seen it suggested that sugar shake is better the a wash) its the type of study I had been talking about, tracking the brood on clear sheets etc
    I look forward to published results, but till then lets look in to what the graphs show using a square and going by the 1 week mark

    OAV hives had 14% less eggs, 7.7% less young larva and 4.5% less old larva then the control that's from a SINGLE OAV treatment

    the OAV hives started at 1.8% mites, 3 weeks post treatment they were at 3.2% a 77% growth... more then the untreated control hives !!!
    the formic went form 1.6 to .3% a 81% reduction in the mites

    so OAV likly kills brood, (despite what the internet says) and we have always know formic was ruff on brood.
    I would supect more OAV treatments will lead to more brood loss and you would see the 2nd/3rd treatments to kill even more as the extra dose is talking sub lethal exposure to lethal with the extra exposure..

    so from a management perspective I would love to see a multi dose trial to see what level of brood mortality we get when enough OAV doses to control the mites and how that mortality compares to formic... with those numbers people can make informed mangmnet distions

    good stuff

    johno, in your experance how many treatments do you fell it would take for OAV hives in this set up to match the mite conroal of the formic?
    "oh well, let us stick to science. let them have their beliefs and intuitions!" -Medhat Nasr

  12. #71
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    Default Re: OA Vapor & Dribble brood mortality

    Msl; look up the cost of maintaining a resistance. Unless it continues to be a benefit to an organism it usually fades, does it not. Amitraz resistance developed over some ill advised practice but returned to being highly useful though I hear that is again fading in some areas. There is suspicion that the same cattle mite formulations might be party to that as it was with the original period of ineffectiveness. Resistance is not a once and for always thing in most cases. To say that this would be the case if some resistance to OA started to appear, I think is a bit fear mongering. Very remotely possible but not highly likely.

    I think you are too bought into discrediting OA to have unquestionable objectivity. I dont see it in other areas of your bee keeping; I always read your posts with interest. Why the missionary zeal in this particular subject
    Frank

  13. #72
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    Default Re: OA Vapor & Dribble brood mortality

    Msl I take it you did not find the resent research by Ramesh Sagili Phd University of Oregon regarding brood damage by OAV. I left formic to go to oxalic because of the inconsistant results from Formic, still got about 4 gallons of formic if you would like some. Look when you treat and kill only phoretic mites in a week after your treatment your count could be higher than when you started as maybe 60% of the mites were in brood and have since emerged therefore treat on Mondays and Fridays till they be no mo as they might say in de South. So all in all my colonies will recieve at least 12 treatments a year and when I take my honey in Late June early July many of those colonies I cannot get down to 3 medium boxes so must be doing something wrong.

  14. #73
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    Default Re: OA Vapor & Dribble brood mortality

    Msl; look up the cost of maintaining a resistance. Unless it continues to be a benefit to an organism it usually fades
    understand were your coming form, be we don't see that in mites at this point, if we did the magic bullets that realy kicked the snot out of them in the old days would just be rotated back in and we wouldn't be talking about resistance at all
    anyone guess... maby the resistance isn't costly or dosen't provide a reproductive disadvantageous set up... my "gut" is its likely do to the brother sister mating setup.

    I think you are too bought into discrediting OA to have unquestionable objectivity.
    Well no one has objectivity, and if you think you do, your fooling you self, best I can do is say to bring me a group studys that counters my group of studys

    your taking it all wrong, as Noted earlier OA is my sole chemical treatment, I have a vested interest in protecting it

    Spring split, drone culling, 1x Aug dribble, 2x winter broodless OAVs.. I am comfortable that OAV/dribble have different enough actions that mixed with the other methods I am getting enough rotation.. (or its what I wan't to beleave and my bias is on high) per year one generation of mites is exposed to dribble, one to OAV

    No were am I slamming OA, I am just pointing out its not magic pixie dust and has its limitations.

    I dont see it in other areas of your bee keeping;
    I think you do, and we are just on the same side of the debate then, so it gets wiped by your bias... Ie I think go after the "natural selection" fokes with the same sprit and data dump.. they have the same problem as here... some one said something on the internet that they locked on to that is often not supported by the data and then it keeps getting repeated reinforcing peoples position

    Anyway, I have an open mind, send me a study that contradicts the studys I used(I have listed many) to form my opinion on the subject , then we can debate the validity of each study's findings. I think its uselessness to debate opinions unless we have the information on hand that was used to form them as every one has an opinion, especially on line...
    Its those who have an informed opinion that are worth while to debate.... and thats one of the reasons I keep up a sprited dialog with the likes of JohnO and GregV.. If I poke them enuff they often will come up with some gem and teach me something (such as Johno's finding of Ramesh Sagili 's work) and I hope I do the same for them

    Msl I take it you did not find the resent research by Ramesh Sagili Phd University of Oregon regarding brood damage by OAV.
    link is in post #70
    Last edited by msl; 04-14-2020 at 03:35 PM.
    "oh well, let us stick to science. let them have their beliefs and intuitions!" -Medhat Nasr

  15. #74
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    Default Re: OA Vapor & Dribble brood mortality

    "nderstand were your coming form, be we don't see that in mites at this point, if we did the magic bullets that realy kicked the snot out of them in the old days would just be rotated back in and we wouldn't be talking about resistance at all
    anyone guess... maby the resistance isn't costly or dosen't provide a reproductive disadvantageous set up... my "gut" is its likely do to the brother sister mating setup
    "

    Did you read the example of the amitras losing effectiveness and then recovering after people left it alone for a while and restarted some seasons later using the labeled Apivar. I think the same has happened with coumaphos and fluvalenate. They still knock the snot out of mites but contamination issues suck! I see no particular reason to think that any incipient resistance to OA would not follow a similar pattern as I alluded to in an earlier post. That is IF resistance did develop. After thirty years it seems remote.

    "No were am I slamming OA, I am just pointing out its not magic pixie dust and has its limitations".

    Yes it has limitations; I think a manner of presenting it with time release similar to what is done with the Apivar, MAQs, Apilife Var, etc. could have promise. Peak exposure levels are reduced and may get approval for use with supers on. It has such approval on other continents. I am working on that. Waiting to get some mite counts on a few hives exposed that way since last season. Quite a bit of development with that on the New Zealand forum.

    "I think you do, and we are just on the same side of the debate then, so it gets wiped by your bias." Seems like rather convoluted reasoning but anyways it is good to know that we agree on some things.
    Frank

  16. #75
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    Default Re: OA Vapor & Dribble brood mortality

    I think the same has happened with coumaphos and fluvalenate
    Fluvalenate some what, coumaphos not so much The reversion can last just a few treatments and then the area is full of resistant mites again - Canadian Honey Council (2008). Request for Emergency Registration - Apivar Pest Control StripTM for Control of Apistan – CheckMite –Resistant Varroa Mites (Varroa destructor) on Honey Bees (Apis mellifera) in CANADA - 2008

    we see in your country just how rapidly resistant mites spread, and I do mean spread, not develop... it could take decades and decades for a mutation to pop up that gives mites a survival advantage over a chemical... but when that happens, and that chemicals use is wide spread the resistant mites spread about as fast as they did with there initial invasion

    "The spread of resistance is proven to be rapid. The VAR mites resistant to fluvalinate was first reported in Canada in 2001, and by 2002 it was already spread in most of the province (CAPA, 2003; Canadian Honey Council, 2010).
    Similarly when coumaphos resistance was first discovered in 2003, by 2006 it was reported in many provinces (CAPA, 2004; CAPA, 2007; Canadian Honey Council, 2010)."
    https://www.ontariobee.com/sites/ont...Oct21_2013.pdf

    this why I am suggesting the time for (the industry as a whole) rotation is well before resistance is reported
    "oh well, let us stick to science. let them have their beliefs and intuitions!" -Medhat Nasr

  17. #76
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    Default

    That is very interesting. I used the OA vap early last spring and Formic Pro this year for mites. Both seem to work well for me. Did you find the beekeeping program with the University of Montana helpful? I have been looking and liked that one due to the complete online format.

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