Is an AI breeder queen worth it for 20-25
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  1. #1
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    Default Is an AI breeder queen worth it for 20-25

    I am looking to increase my hive numbers and requeen what I have. I will probably need 20 to 25 queens this year. My stock has shifted to mostly southern Italians and I have not been impressed. I would like some darker bees with VSH traits to help with winter and mites here in CT. To get a breeder to graft from for $200 or $250 or so, my thinking is I would get superior genetics and cost me only $10/queen, plus potentially help with winter losses. I bought a pure VSH breeder from Glenn Apiaries about 10 years ago and had great success. I know they are no longer around as a company, but is my overall logic sound? Is it worth getting a breeder for this many queens? Is there a suggestion of what bee type/breeder company if winter hardiness and mite tolerance are my two most important factors? Thanks!
    15+/- beehives, Duck Hunter
    Wishing I can quite my job, keep bees and live the farm life!

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  3. #2

    Default Re: Is an AI breeder queen worth it for 20-25

    We run between 100-140 hives in Eastern CT and have had tremendous success with the queens we graft. They are survivor stock Carniolan/Italian hybrids that are open-mated. I'd be happy to talk to you more about this and potentially line up queens/ or queen cells from a graft for you.

    PJ 860-933-5617

  4. #3
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    Default Re: Is an AI breeder queen worth it for 20-25

    impressive, that's a large TF operation for most places, what are your losses like?

    Shout out to the OP, I grew up in Ellington
    "oh well, let us stick to science. let them have their beliefs and intuitions!" -Medhat Nasr

  5. #4
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    Default Re: Is an AI breeder queen worth it for 20-25

    impressive, that's a large TF operation for most places, what are your losses like?

    they are TF in Eastern CT?

  6. #5
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    Default Re: Is an AI breeder queen worth it for 20-25

    they are TF in Eastern CT
    I don't know of another way to produce survivor stock
    "oh well, let us stick to science. let them have their beliefs and intuitions!" -Medhat Nasr

  7. #6
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    Default Re: Is an AI breeder queen worth it for 20-25

    Survivor could just mean that they overwinter well and have nothing to do with being TF. Regardless, the OP should take PJ up on the offer as opposed to spening big bucks for a breeder, given the number of queens wanted.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  8. #7
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PJTracy1 View Post
    We run between 100-140 hives in Eastern CT and have had tremendous success with the queens we graft. They are survivor stock Carniolan/Italian hybrids that are open-mated. I'd be happy to talk to you more about this and potentially line up queens/ or queen cells from a graft for you.

    PJ 860-933-5617
    Thanks PJ, I will definitely give you a call, I really appreciate the offer. Glad to know there are others in CT having success!
    15+/- beehives, Duck Hunter
    Wishing I can quite my job, keep bees and live the farm life!

  9. #8
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    Default Re: Is an AI breeder queen worth it for 20-25

    Survivor could just mean that they overwinter well and have nothing to do with being TF
    That means most of the package bees are "survivor stock" as they are grafted from overwintered queens

    Survivor stock as used means they have lived TF and survived... Bees that survive with treatment are very common

    they may have meant " locally adapted and winter hardy stock"
    "oh well, let us stick to science. let them have their beliefs and intuitions!" -Medhat Nasr

  10. #9
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    Default Re: Is an AI breeder queen worth it for 20-25

    Mosherd1:

    PJ's bees certainly sound interesting and I am in no way directing you away from them.

    That said there is a beeman in the "for sale" section on this site that also has interesting sounding bees and has advertised overwintered bees for sale in Western MA. with a interesting pedigree.
    Here is the ad link https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...cleus-Colonies

    I don't know this MA beeman and just like I am not directing you away from PJ, I am not directing towards the MA beeman.
    (I have though put both in my personal regional queen contact book for future reference.)

    The AI queen is worth the purchase IMO for the 25 queens you need with the caveat that will take more work to end up with laying queens along with the fact that the first generation queens you raise will be mating with the drones of the population of bees you are looking to replace. Instant genetic dilution.
    Purchased mated queens from a apiary you like add immediately to the genetic switch over in your bees including the male side if you raise a bunch of drones from them to flood the area. Faster changeover and more local genetic control but more expensive monetarily.

  11. #10
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    Default Re: Is an AI breeder queen worth it for 20-25

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    Survivor stock as used means they have lived TF and survived..
    I looked in the dictionary. There is no slot for 'survivor stock' with respect to bees.

    My guess would mean, 'survivor stock' are bees that were used as props in a stupid television show.

  12. #11
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    Default Re: Is an AI breeder queen worth it for 20-25

    Don't people also add the moniker "Survivor Stock" to swarms of unknown origin?

    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  13. #12
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    Default Re: Is an AI breeder queen worth it for 20-25

    You should consider Latshaw queens before making a final decision. www.latshawapiaries.com.
    Lloyd Spear

  14. #13
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    Default Re: Is an AI breeder queen worth it for 20-25

    I looked in the dictionary. There is no slot for 'survivor stock' with respect to bees.
    treatment-free isn't there either... I have run into beekeepers marketing there honey and bees as "chemical-free" as they only use "organic compounds" not "synthetic chemicals" most of us would say OA/FA doesn't fit under the standard usage of "chemical free"

    It a simple matter to go to google scholar and see how the term is used in peer review papers and sicnistific litaure

    JW's deffention is not in line with how
    Sue Cobey use it in her “Queen Rearing for Survivor Stock" class
    or how Randy Oliver,Robert G. Danka, Thomas E. Rinderer, John Kefuss, Danny Weaver,Keith Delaplane, David Tarpy, VanEnglesdorp, Shepard, or dozens and dozens of others use it in a scientific context

    I agree there are some people who feel every swarm they catch is "feral survivor stock", but we know that is far from the truth, and their loss rates form such stocks show it

    @loyd Joe has a 4 queen min order
    "oh well, let us stick to science. let them have their beliefs and intuitions!" -Medhat Nasr

  15. #14
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    Default Re: Is an AI breeder queen worth it for 20-25

    Quote Originally Posted by PJTracy1 View Post
    We run between 100-140 hives in Eastern CT and have had tremendous success with the queens we graft. They are survivor stock Carniolan/Italian hybrids that are open-mated. I'd be happy to talk to you more about this and potentially line up queens/ or queen cells from a graft for you.

    PJ 860-933-5617
    PJ would you mind telling me a bit more about your queens and how long you've been working on the line.
    If you do mind, I get it- no harm.
    Thanks clyderoad.

    JW's deffention is not in line with how
    Sue Cobey use it in her “Queen Rearing for Survivor Stock" class
    or how Randy Oliver,Robert G. Danka, Thomas E. Rinderer, John Kefuss, Danny Weaver,Keith Delaplane, David Tarpy, VanEnglesdorp, Shepard, or dozens and dozens of others use it in a scientific context
    msl: I'm very impressed that you can remember specifically how all of those personalities, and the other dozens and dozens not mentioned, use the term 'survivor stock' in their scientific writings.

  16. #15
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    Default Re: Is an AI breeder queen worth it for 20-25

    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    You should consider Latshaw queens before making a final decision. www.latshawapiaries.com.
    Thanks I did but they had a 4 queen minimum for their AI queens. I also spoke with VP Queens and they are sold out until next year. So I will get my order in early from VP next year I believe. For this year I will see what is available locally and if need be graft from a hive of mine that did well this winter and is a bit darker in color.
    15+/- beehives, Duck Hunter
    Wishing I can quite my job, keep bees and live the farm life!

  17. #16
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    Default Re: Is an AI breeder queen worth it for 20-25

    msl: I'm very impressed that you can remember
    who said I remembered
    as I said
    It a simple matter to go to google scholar and see how the term is used
    , Grozzie challenged, so I did just that. took about 10 min, and from there I felt I could move forward standing on a defensible position. This is often how I respond (you all really don't think I have all this on the tip of my tongue do you?) as It helps keep me (but doesn't prevent ) form putting my foot in my mouth

    it is worth noting that both Latshaw and VP queens are TF and offer true survivor stock, you might note that in your area sam comfort uses a LOT of VPs stock (bought as QCs from Miksa Honey farms in FL, they have latshaw cells as well)
    Last edited by msl; 04-02-2020 at 02:56 PM.
    "oh well, let us stick to science. let them have their beliefs and intuitions!" -Medhat Nasr

  18. #17
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    Default Re: Is an AI breeder queen worth it for 20-25

    I have been guilty of having foot in the mouth disease on numerous occasions. In this case, I was merely suggesting that someone else may be using the term in a different manner.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  19. #18
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    Default Re: Is an AI breeder queen worth it for 20-25

    understood JW
    when a MOD (or any member with "internet street cred" )states "Survivor could just mean that they overwinter well and have nothing to do with being TF" it can very rapidly become the accepted definition for the next crop of users and using the term in a different manner becomes acceptable, muddying the waters. as I have said before some of our problems come from "chaff left unchallenged" on the internet. Just trying to keep the waters from getting any murkier than they are
    "oh well, let us stick to science. let them have their beliefs and intuitions!" -Medhat Nasr

  20. #19
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    Default Re: Is an AI breeder queen worth it for 20-25

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    who said I remembered
    as I said , Grozzie challenged, so I did just that. took about 10 min, and from there I felt I could move forward standing on a defensible position. This is often how I respond (you all really don't think I have all this on the tip of my tongue do you?) as It helps keep me (but doesn't prevent ) form putting my foot in my mouth.......
    Oh wonderful.

    Seems much more simple to ask the poster what was meant by the term instead of making the all to common assumption.

  21. #20
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    Default Re: Is an AI breeder queen worth it for 20-25

    I took what they said at face value and asked about their success rate, what's wrong with that?
    "oh well, let us stick to science. let them have their beliefs and intuitions!" -Medhat Nasr

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