Shelter in place...unintended consequences - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Shelter in place...unintended consequences

    I see that Burvagy has just made available thousands of the KN95 masks. BTW, they are made in China. Now, if the US had only stockpiled toilet paper, we would be all set.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

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  3. #62
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    Default Re: Shelter in place...unintended consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by AHudd View Post
    I'll bet the USA will be awash in masks before anyone comes up with next thing for which the President can be blamed.
    Highly unlikely. altho they may have plants assembling those masks, you cant just snap your fingers and have double or triple the amount of raw materials required to make them show up. The supply chains that provide those raw materials have been systematically dismantled by tarriffs over the last couple of years. In normal circumstances it would take 6 months to ramp up the supply chain to have a dramatic increase in production. In current desire to accelerate the process, be lucky to have it happen in 2 months.

    Now take a look around the world, the rate or progression of the pandemic is such that those masks will be needed in 2 weeks. Not gonna happen that fast no matter how much folks wish it to be so.

    USA may end up swimming in masks, but it'll be to late.

  4. #63
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    Default Re: Shelter in place...unintended consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by Amibusiness View Post
    Yes, wild. I was a bit worried about a spike in domestic violence before the divorce rates go up. Add to that that many shelters are closed and you have a tough situation for many women, now that folks are home more as well as worried and frustrated....
    https://www.facebook.com/HotMessExpr...type=3&theater
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  5. #64
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    Default Re: Shelter in place...unintended consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by grozzie2 View Post
    Highly unlikely. altho they may have plants assembling those masks, you cant just snap your fingers and have double or triple the amount of raw materials required to make them show up. The supply chains that provide those raw materials have been systematically dismantled by tarriffs over the last couple of years. In normal circumstances it would take 6 months to ramp up the supply chain to have a dramatic increase in production. In current desire to accelerate the process, be lucky to have it happen in 2 months.
    if you look at my post some where in the past, 3m has already doubled their output, another producer has already doubled their output, and both are still adding capacity, can't argue with the numbers
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  6. #65
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    Oh Alex.... When did corporate America lead from the top? When there was money to be made or politicians to influence so that money could be made.... Obviously the manufacturers can read the writing on the wall better than those who expect them to lead from the top for the public good.... Example: the longer they hold into the masks the higher the price will be. Now that would be immoral and the public (or God forbid for the "free market" fools, maybe even the government) could compel them to make available at a reasonable cost the products they are able to. All well and good. Except... a good capitalist will quickly realize the money to be made by timing the manufacturing such that the price has gone up. That could mean stockpiling the raw materials that are available while acting as though they are manufacturing as quickly as possible. Immoral, I hear you shout? Welcome to the power of money. If it were not so we would not see our "leaders" selling stock when they were supposed to protect public interest....
    Grozzie, fair point on supply chain. How could we get more raw materials for needed supplies? I have a hunch... that some materials might be used in other industries that could be transferred.... Would they, out of the goodness of their hearts, donate those materials to 3m and such? Nooooo! Could the fed compel them to sell at a reasonable price? Yeeesss.... Would a real wartime president take that responsibility? While I do not know how many times it could have or should have been done and was not, I do know that it has been done successfully. Is this a war? No, but this administration considers itself a wartime administration....
    Another example: remember Clinton's silly gun ban in the 90s that so many hated? Remember that lobyists for gun manufacturer Glock helped write it? Oh indeed, one must read the fine print. Guns that were banned but had already been manufactured could still be sold. Guess who ramped up production of soon to be "illegal" guns, while at the same time reducing sales of the same? What a party when the law went into effect and all those worried citizens went to the store to purchase the last of the now extremely overpriced firearms! This of course has nothing to do with corona, but with good capitalists lobbying effectively in order to make plenty money in the future. No, I would not leave all decisions to corporations.

  7. #66
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    And yes, wild, by now output is starting to increase, but our "leaders" have known to get prepared for covid since at least January and could have had the simple things like masks taken care of. Now for the all important flattening of the curve that is getting so much attention, what we really need is the ventilators and more complicated equipment as well. That will take a bit longer to supply and can then be transfered to other countries in need when the first hit are through the plague. It would be prudent indeed for a leader to be out front on this, rather than blaming China (chinese virus) or waiting for the private sector to take over. Remember we used to have people who thought about these things and prepared. They were fired. In this war the leading general's were fired just as we declared war. Good grief!

  8. #67
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    Jw I know that was a joke. But if they had stockpiled tp, it would not be so funny when the cdc started recommending using damp toilet paper draped over your nose, as a protection for healthworkers....

  9. #68
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    Default Re: Shelter in place...unintended consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by wildbranch2007 View Post
    if you look at my post some where in the past, 3m has already doubled their output, another producer has already doubled their output, and both are still adding capacity, can't argue with the numbers
    I meant to ask the poster of that comment if 400 million was how many they were producing or if that was capacity, but I got sidetracked.
    I am assuming they are made of cotton. If so there is a 3M plant in Coleman, Texas. If you are in Texas, you're never far from a bale of cotton.

    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  10. #69
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    Default Re: Shelter in place...unintended consequences

    With contracts going to the lowest bidder, if the US had stockpiled TP, it would probably all be single-ply.




    On a side note, I scored 7-N95 masks from work today. My wife, a nurse at a local hospital will have a few extra days of protection before we have to break out the bandanas.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  11. #70
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    Default Re: Shelter in place...unintended consequences

    Amibusiness,
    Perhaps I could see your POV a little more clearly if you would define what you mean when you say "leader". Keeping in mind, if you are referring to the President, the limits placed on him by various laws to keep too much power from residing in one person. Maybe, you are referring to the Senate, House, Judicial branch or all three.
    There are also many laws restricting the government from producing anything. A perpetual non-compete agreement with everyone.

    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  12. #71
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    Alex, well an obvious place to put leaders in quotes would be all (esp legislators) who used private briefing info to sell $$$ stocks to enrich themselves. Similarly any high up public official who should have their assets in a blind trust... oh dear... but chooses to have their heirs oversee the assets instead and retains an heir and their spouse as advisors.....
    Yes non compete. I do not think we are asking the administration to produce things, even if that's the language we use. We are asking them to cause things to be produced. Like when a former administration caused bombers to be produced en masse....

  13. #72
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    Default Re: Shelter in place...unintended consequences

    One other item I have read about N95 masks this week is that there are 2 different types. There are "medical" type and "industrial" type. The manufacturing inspection and certification processes are different for the different types. Recently the laws were temporarily modified to allow the "industrial" type to be used in medical locations, and this allows the mask production for medical to increase the medical supply rapidly. There will be less masks available for the industrial field, but I think most people are willing to take that loss.

    I hope they are also doing the same thing for industrial PPE. Being able to redirect industrial tyvex "bunny suits" to the medical field would help with the shortage.

    edit: link to the article https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ha...8k9?li=BBnb4R7

  14. #73
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    Default Re: Shelter in place...unintended consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by elmer_fud View Post
    I hope they are also doing the same thing for industrial PPE. Being able to redirect industrial tyvex "bunny suits" to the medical field would help with the shortage.

    edit: link to the article https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ha...8k9?li=BBnb4R7
    Well they will not be diverting from their own industrial contractors. Bath Iron Works, Newport News, Ingalls , shipbuilders are continuing to work under Navy direction. Workers spreading out to every county in Maine with a confirmed case (not really testing people here). Using those respirators and suits. The bulk of those workers are on ships up to 3 or more years from delivery. Shelter in place my butt. Ships close to delivery have crews living on board, making college dorms look spacious. Good plan to have thousands of workers moving from crowded spaces to communities and homes and back daily. But close the stores and schools.
    It is hard to design a safety net that some will not use as a hammock.

  15. #74
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    Default Re: Shelter in place...unintended consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by wildbranch2007 View Post
    if you look at my post some where in the past, 3m has already doubled their output, another producer has already doubled their output, and both are still adding capacity, can't argue with the numbers
    No, you cant argue with numbers. The capacity is 400 million a year. That's 33 million a month, double that is 66 million per month. In a couple weeks there will be a need for 10 million a day. The numbers dont work....

  16. #75
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    Default Re: Shelter in place...unintended consequences

    Stockpile, stockpile, stockpile.... but no one is discussing 'real assets' and the TAX ramifications on those Corporations or persons. smh-

  17. #76
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    Default Re: Shelter in place...unintended consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by elmer_fud View Post
    One other item I have read about N95 masks this week is that there are 2 different types. There are "medical" type and "industrial" type. The manufacturing inspection and certification processes are different for the different types. Recently the laws were temporarily modified to allow the "industrial" type to be used in medical locations, and this allows the mask production for medical to increase the medical supply rapidly. There will be less masks available for the industrial field, but I think most people are willing to take that loss.

    I hope they are also doing the same thing for industrial PPE. Being able to redirect industrial tyvex "bunny suits" to the medical field would help with the shortage.

    edit: link to the article https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ha...8k9?li=BBnb4R7
    I read about that also.
    With that in mind, i think I'll double down on my prediction of being awash in masks soon, but I think I'll leave off the part about before anyone can blame the President for something else.

    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  18. #77

    Default Re: Shelter in place...unintended consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by AHudd View Post
    With that in mind, i think I'll double down on my prediction of being awash in masks soon
    Two weeks ago when I was in SAM'S buying sugar there was no bottled water. One of the workers told me that when a pallet arrived they would take it to the floor and it would be mobbed and emptied in a matter of minutes.
    Yesterday I went to SAM'S and there were pallets of bottled water everywhere. So many that they were in the way of foot traffic. A glut of bottled water.
    Next a glut of toilet paper....I'm betting.
    And later...ppe.
    The nature of the beast, I'm afraid.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  19. #78
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    Default Re: Shelter in place...unintended consequences

    the good news the equipment may reach your area b/4 all the people from NYC reach your area, they are on the move, and the reason why.

    In New York, the number of COVID-19 cases is doubling every three days, partly due to increased testing. More than 1,000 cases were confirmed overnight. Read more: https://trib.al/509Mma5
    Image may contain: possible text that says 'Coronavirus in NY As of March 24 at 11 a.m. Total positive cases: 25,665 Total tested: 91,270 Total deaths: 210 New York has roughly ten times more cases than any other state. S.'
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  20. #79
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    Default Re: Shelter in place...unintended consequences

    so this guy could find equipment and get 1000 to Calif. in a couple of days .
    Elon Musk Says He Procured 1,255 Ventilators from China to Aid in Coronavirus Response
    https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...045446213.html Sure seems to me do be an addressable problem that everyone is spending more time getting face time in front of the camera then actually trying to fix the problems. at all level's.

    New York state is sending 1 million masks to NYC, Gov. Cuomo says.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/21/polit...ead/index.html

    Cuomo tweeted on Saturday that 500,000 masks will go to Long Island and that "we are purchasing 6,000 additional ventilators and gathering supplies from every source we can get."
    stuffs out there, and going to the area's that need it most, they say
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  21. #80
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    Default Re: Shelter in place...unintended consequences

    you can't make this stuff up. Watching the only financial show I watch, they bring on the ceo from a tech company that makes other equipment, he was one of the companies that was requested to start mfg. ventilators/regulators. He figured it would be faster if he found out if there was a demand to fix them, got a hold of a hospital and got 10, techies took them apart and said easy to fix. So he calls up the mfg, and they make an agreement, the mfg will send him the parts, shut down his repair line and turn it into making new ones, significantly increasing his through put. A logistics company calls him and agrees to pickup the defective units and return the fixed units. the OEM is sending over tech people to show them how to test the equipment to make sure the repairs are correct. In the mean time the ceo sets up a phone system and people to start calling around and seeing how many need repairs. one of the early calls had 400 sitting in a warehouse, they aren't done calling yet and they have already found over 10,000 respirators/ventilators sitting around not repaired. He didn't say how many they could do in a day. But another example everyone is out there screaming about shortages, maybe some of these people should start looking in the mirror, how long you think it would take to build up that many units awaiting repair and not bother repairing them. what other gems of stories are awaiting, probably when this is all over they will find a warehouse full like the did in puerto rico.

    gee not bad for remembering here is the actual interview. https://www.cnbc.com/video/2020/03/2...-outbreak.html
    Last edited by wildbranch2007; 03-25-2020 at 06:22 AM.
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

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