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Mountain camp vs. honey

6K views 39 replies 18 participants last post by  Litsinger 
#1 ·
I checked all of my hives yesterday and all the honey is still capped and the bees are eating the sugar bricks. Why are they preferring the sugar over the honey?
 
#2 ·
Because in winter conditions dry sugar is easier to consume.

Keep in mind - bee don't just eat honey in winter as-is, by the spoon.

They must:
1)warm honey mass up to the internal cluster temp and maintain it so (they will not consume cold honey) - that takes a lot of energy
2)liquefy it to be less concentrated (especially if honey is crystallized to a degree)
3)move side-ways onto the cold comb/cold honey if no more above left (which makes them work even harder - try warming up a slab of cold honey one frame over).

Eating honey in winter takes energy and water - for a smaller cluster this maybe prohibitive and deadly.

Dry sugar (assuming it is above the cluster):
1)takes no energy to warm - it is dry and is already warmed up somewhat by normal exhaust from the cluster (in fact, you want the sugar to be the water-condensing body anyway and, thus, cool/cold)
2)takes no water to liquefy - water created by normal exhaust gets condensed onto sugar itself
Bees simply lick off the sweat water droplets created by condensation while being in most optimal conditions (the warmest place in the hive).

Simply - dry sugar is cheaper to eat when it is cold.
That's what bees are doing.
 
#12 ·
Do you feed any syrup in the spring?

Some Commercial Beekeepers here feed up to weight in the fall and leave a frame feeder in place. In early spring when the ambient temp is on the cool side, they open the side of the inner cover and fill the frame feeder.

I know you don't use frame feeders, so would you have need/use the paint cans in the spring to feed.
 
#6 ·
That makes sense about the energy required to consume honey vs. sugar. I'm a new beek so I'm learning as much as I can from you guys. I added the sugar at the beginning of winter when I saw a lot of moisture accumulating inside the hive and thought the dryish sugar would help. It was more for that reason but I also thought it would be an insurance policy in case they don't have enough food. At this point everything I do is a learning experience.
 
#13 ·
I'm a new beek so I'm learning as much as I can from you guys.
..... I also thought it would be an insurance policy in case they don't have enough food. At this point everything I do is a learning experience.
Too many "new" beekeepers lose colonies due to late winter/early spring starvation. Sure, it could be prevented with proper feeding at the right time and is completely avoidable. But something as simple and inexpensive as supplemental sugar, I think it is good insurance to bridge the learning curve gap for beekeepers just starting out.

I agree that we should all learn appropriate ways to prepare our hives for winter, but it makes no sense to me to discourage new beekeepers from taking additional precautions while they learn the ropes.

I've been at this for a while, and although I try my best to prep all of my hives for winter, sometimes I'll end up with a few colonies that I dropped the ball on and seem to be a little lighter than I am comfortable with. I'll add sugar blocks to those colonies, and whether they needed them or not I'll have live bees in the spring. I'm not embarrassed about it or feel like I'm a slacker beekeeper. I fully understand that I'm not prefect, and I don't want my bees to suffer for it. I don't keep that many hives but I want as many as possible alive and kickin' in the spring, in spite of me ;).
 
#7 ·
it's like michael says insofar as the bees will consume whatever feed is open and save the capped reserves for later.

that, and the warmest place in the hive is at the very top so they like to hang out there when it's cold.
 
#8 ·
It would not serve bees well to eat all of their stores when other sources of food are available. They will always eat other sources first or they would starve to death in the winter. Sugar blocks or mountain camp sugar are not considered stored food to them.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Not sure the bees are smart enough and capable enough to "save food for later" in the winter conditions.

IF they were that smart and capable, they'd always setup their clusters strategically aligned with their food stores and never die inches away from food (due to their non-existent planning ahead :) ).

IMO, they just eat what takes the least effort and try to conserve energy and life-resourc best they can - just taking the least resistance path (intuitively at that - no thinking is involved; same as wintering fish going deep, what not).

Winter operating mode is "survival and now" and the constraints are very tight.
Summer operating mode is different and no life-or-death constraints are present - indeed, "save food for later".
Different bees too - summer programmed.
 
#11 ·
They're not preferring it - they are working it (as others have said) simply because it's there ...

Indeed, they're not just eating it - if you look very carefully you may be able to spot - with damp-set sugar - that they'll be dumping some of it, eating some of it, and storing the rest 'as is'. If fondant were to be given instead (again, when it wasn't strictly necessary to do so), then they'd be eating some of it and storing the rest. 'Dumping' thus appears to be related only to crystal size.

Crystalline sugars like these are often stored 'as is' and without cappings, and it's far easier to spot this behaviour in single box colonies where the brood nest may well be undergoing back-filling. Indeed, on inspecting such combs the uncapped white sugar deposits can frequently be mistaken at a quick glance as being chalk-brood. With my failing eyesight I've often had a moment's concern before examining those combs more closely ... :)
LJ
 
#17 ·
In the original posts with MC, he talked about feeding syrup until Thanksgiving. St 2000’ in Catskill mountains of New York. Then he had a moisture issue which he corrected with his MC method. Gave a 5 pound bag, six times in the winter. It wasn’t about emergency feed. It was about moisture control...of a problem that he created by feeding too late. Now it seems it’s about emergency feed, or for just in case...more likely. The key word should be emergency. The proper management would to feed light colonies enough thick syrup early enough so it is in the comb and properly ripened. And yet it has become a default just in case method of making the beekeeper feel better. Why are there so many posts from beekeepers who say the top box is full of capped honey and the bees are working the sugar.
 
#18 ·
2nd year 6a - 5 hives have feeding shims, ample fondant, winter patties, ample honey stores and super dry cavity. Noticing they go for the honey stores when they can get out for water. After those flying days they stay quiet and down in their combs.

Glad I have the extra stores because it may be almost too dry now. There is a lot more to the water humidity discussion this year thats very interesting.
 
#19 ·
I was just having a discussion along these lines with another beekeeper. If supplemental sugar such as MC, fondant, or sugar bricks are provided to a hive that is otherwise well provisioned, what happens to all the capped sugar syrup they did not use prior to the flow commencing? Well, it gets moved up into the supers to make room for the brood. Best bet is to monitor hive weight and only add dry fed sugar if the hive is light.
 
#21 ·
I have seen the bees flying the sugar out and dumping it in the spring. My usual shavings box top keeps the sugar quite dry if you do not dampen it to cake. I can see them moving syrup up from brood box frames into the honey supers but did not have the feeling they were wetting down the frame top sugar and taking it up. Not very scientific though;)

In case of bees getting locked on brood and perishing rather than accessing honey beside the cluster, I wonder if sugar stored above might be the difference between life and death. Wondering is not very scientific though, is it?;)

I commonly dont run close to the line on stores, but throwing about 4 lbs sugar up on the frame tops makes me feel good.
 
#22 ·
I think the sugar blocks serve as a "bridge" for those of us that get extended very cold stretches. If the bees run out of honey where they are at, ie get stranded on no food, the cluster can always be in contact with the sugar blocks. The sugar carbs tide them over until weather warms and cluster can move sideways or bees can leave the cluster to retrieve honey.

I often have a few frames of honey left over in the spring after using sugar blocks over the winter. I do not have to feed syrup in the spring. The surplus honey frames are great for putting in NUCs.

I haven't much visible problem with Nosema with sugar blocks on the hives. I can only recall one ten frame single that had a blow out and hive died.
 
#23 ·
I've never heard of a commercial beekeeper feeding dry sugar over winter, and I take this to mean that it probably has no place in a really well-run apiary. Some of those guys are really sharp and experiment a lot to optimize their operation over the course of many decades.

That being said, I did it my first winter, to correct for mistakes made in fall. The hives were underweight, and had been fed syrup too late for it to be properly ripened. All three colonies survived, but maybe they would have anyway.

This winter, my second, the hives won't be needing it. (It's a lot easier when you have enough full strength colonies that you can move resources around as needed.)

If I mess up again I won't hesitate to do it again, but I definitely wouldn't call it "Plan A".
 
#24 ·
rtaylor: "At this point everything I do is a learning experience." I suggest yo go to Micheal Palmer's YouTube post on Fall feeding to a weight using a weighting scale. You get to avoid a lot of work and so do the bees. Honey is inverted sucrose into fructose and glucose, each with a molecule of water attached (when they consume it they give off 3.5 gallons of water for each 40 lb. of honey consumed) . Bees use enzyme's to invert it, we mostly use heat and acid to invert it. Which do you think saves energy, stored honey or sucrose sugar on top? BTW, when I used sugar, Mountain Camp stye, it got so wet it was dripping down - sugar is hydroscopic - what a mess.
 
#26 ·
I find myself doubting the effectiveness of 4 or 5 lbs sugar for feeding bees. I think that is a few days worth of carbs in early brooding. 4 # sugar = 5 # honey. If they don't have enough food elswhere I think such a small amount of emergency feed only rarely would make the difference between live and dead bees come spring.
If it makes the beekeeper feel better and is not really for the bees, it could be that a little goes a long way.
 
#27 ·
Nothing is uglier than a pile of twitching or barely moving bees that have eaten the last of their food, then the brood, then going/gone comatose. It is really ugly, expensive and I just don't care to see it again. It is indeed always the strongest hives building up and using stores at a prodigious rate. I am a bee keeper not a bee haver and will continue the practice. I am overjoyed that others do whatever they want with their colonies. I usually am able to sell them replacement bees.
 
#28 ·
I agree Vance. Point is that it only rarely comes down to 5# honey. Esp when it is in a form they sometimes drag outside and drop by the front door. I think of they are light they will need more than a few # sugar. And being a hobbyist myself, I do use MC in late winter and early spring. It makes me able to "sleep better at night." But when I try to be rational about such meager rations I tend to think it's not making a key difference for the bees.
 
#29 ·
I agree Vance. Point is that it only rarely comes down to 5# honey. Esp when it is in a form they sometimes drag outside and drop by the front door. I think of they are light they will need more than a few # sugar. And being a hobbyist myself, I do use MC in late winter and early spring. It makes me able to "sleep better at night." But when I try to be rational about such meager rations I tend to think it's not making a key difference for the bees.
In cold, wet March it totally may come down to the #4 of sugar - make or break.
Especially if you winter nucs on 4-5 frames with their small needs and yet limited workforce.
I don't see what is even an argument there.
Just set it and forget it - it costs you trivial $1-2.
There is not much to drag out either - the sugar turns a solid clump (or you make it a solid clump).

MC was the biggest by far technique that made difference for me.
 
#30 ·
If I've loaded them up right in the fall I don't have any with that little honey come spring. I.e. the few # sugar make no difference. Some years I don't get to checking all colonies in the fall and some are very light coming out of winter. Anyone know how many # of honey is used per day by a spring colony expanding from 3 frames of brood? I think 5# is not gonna last long and if that's what regularly makes or breaks your winter survival you are playing closer to the line than I'm comfortable with!
 
#33 · (Edited)
If I've loaded them up right in the fall I don't have any with that little honey come spring. I.e. the few # sugar make no difference. Some years I don't get to checking all colonies in the fall and some are very light coming out of winter. Anyone know how many # of honey is used per day by a spring colony expanding from 3 frames of brood? I think 5# is not gonna last long and if that's what regularly makes or breaks your winter survival you are playing closer to the line than I'm comfortable with!
In my configurations (see Warre to compare) wintering is cheap in terms of honey.

If they don't use up #4 of dry sugar on the top (placed around the XMass time) - I simple save the sugar for next year.
If they start eating the dry sugar - then (ONLY then) I will evaluate the case and add more as needed.
Very easy to check if they need the dry sugar or not, and then do what needs to be done.
This year I re-deployed about 10-20# of left-over sugar from last year (was unused then).

Really, this is not that complicated to make lots of fuss about MC as if something terrible, irresponsible, or expensive.
Obviously - your operations scale is a consideration - goes without saying.

Heck, people even feed dry sugar in warm season in emergency, if needs be.

Says Dr. Wyatt A. Mangum:
If I pick up hives and they are too light, that means starvation could be near. Away at an out-apiary, I am too far from the house to return and waste time with sugar syrup. Rather, I hunt down the nearest grocery store, even a little country one, and in dire times buy all their sugar. A credit card “Nectar Flow.” I feed the sugar dry as shown below. On several occasions I have saved entire apiaries, some 50 hives at a time, from starvation, until spring foraging picked up or I could return with more feed.
Source (scroll all way down):
https://www.tbhsbywam.com/eight-ton-of-tbhs/
 
#32 ·
Pardon me. I was responding to a post above refering to 4#. If you are packing in loads of sugar Then obviously that can make more of a difference. Fwiw our bees usually go through less than a frame of honey when broodless between end of October - end of January. Any sugar added then remains untouched. When they start brooding, especially for the month before dandelions, it's another story. Since that is the time most likely for them to starve that is where emergency feed should be directed. The bigger hives must be going through more than 5# of honey / week at that point but I have never really checked.
 
#34 ·
Greg, so you use it as a window to have a better gauge of what's going on below. Fine. And yes, I use MC when I need to (not my ideal but a fine tool when needed). I think it's worthwhile for beginners to be notified that 4# requires follow up. Vance says he starts with 10 # and adds bricks as needed. That sounds like it will make a difference. If the small mound of sugar is for the beekeeper to be able to monitor the bees, then as I said above it's for the beekeeper not the bees. Regarding this window: I have had colonies with too little honey not touch the mc. I was confused so I dug down. Turns out they were queenless. Now I know to check: just because they have mc overhead in spring does not mean all is honky dory. 🙂
 
#39 ·
Greg, so you use it as a window to have a better gauge of what's going on below. Fine. And yes, I use MC when I need to (not my ideal but a fine tool when needed). I think it's worthwhile for beginners to be notified that 4# requires follow up. Vance says he starts with 10 # and adds bricks as needed. That sounds like it will make a difference. If the small mound of sugar is for the beekeeper to be able to monitor the bees, then as I said above it's for the beekeeper not the bees. Regarding this window: I have had colonies with too little honey not touch the mc. I was confused so I dug down. Turns out they were queenless. Now I know to check: just because they have mc overhead in spring does not mean all is honky dory. ��
Not only.
Remember how in March and April (for my area) the colony is in its most critical and weakest point in season - the lowest number of workers left AND they are trying to brood.
Like I said - we have a terrible spring (cold and wet) and just enough easily accessible food is often the most critical part to make to the dandelions.
Sugar above is perfect; cold honey on the side frames - the top is eaten away - the hive bottom is too cold.
Even syrup is often too cold.
And they must have the carbs - here and now.
I took these pics one day to document how they would ignore cold syrup and feed at the dry sugar clumps - my first bees after making the winter.
This is how I know to just keep the dry sugar into May - we get snowed in May, never know.
Compost Comfort food

Comfort food
 
#36 ·
JWPalmer ( long but helps me collect my thoughts): It has been a warm winter and a cold spell has arrived today. I weighed my hives, one side at a time, summed and corrected for built-in weighting errors on Jan 15, 20220. This is my "first-time" taking winter measurement with a good "fish scale" device. Since Nov. 5th my hives, on average, have gone through about 50% of their stores. Following M. Palmer's lead, I do not put on any MC or emergency stores, simply feed with 2:1 to weight in the Fall. I may add some 2:1 to a hive in the Spring/April 1st.

Some feeding details: My standard winter dry hive components weight a total of 74 lb. with 20,000 bees. My desired winter stowed honey & pollen weight for Nov.1 is 80 lb. for a total hive weight of 154lb. I cannot discriminate pollen weight alone. My first sign of pollen in 2019 was March 19th. I define my winters from Nov. 1 to April 1 or 5 months long for coastal southern New England. All hives were fed above the goal weight due to cheap luggage scale issues ( except one). Using a RubberMaid bottom scale on Nov. 2, 2019 I measured a low of 151lb. to a high of 202lb.

Observations: Averaging 8 hives I have a mid-winter average weight of 130 lb. for 8 hives with a low of 115 lb., a high of 150 lb.. My observations imply big hives eat a lot and generate more heat (crude temperature measurements also), big, predicted to die hive due to high Varroa Counts ate the least amount, 27 lb. and was the lowest total weight on Nov. 2, 2019 at 151 lb. This observation versus a large wintering nuc which ate 35 lb. Biggest eater was 70 lb, stowed 120 lb of honey(?), a big solid hive but a questionable weighting error too. Average for all 8 hives was 44 lb. for 11.5 weeks of winter or a week to week average of 3.83 lb. per week per hive.

Summation: Warm weather plus I have running insulation design test which likely distorts the averages. But insuring bees store 80lb. of honey / sugar syrup or better in the Fall with bees consuming 44lb. average in 2.5 months of winter with 2.5 months to go is a pretty good plan. Learning to weigh in the winter takes a bit of a learning curve. I will be checking weights every two weeks now on fully insulated hives (only top insulated earlier). Today it is sunny, 22F @ 32% RH - a good hive drying day via the bottom board/ entrance if needed.
 
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