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Thread: Dead outs

  1. #21
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    Jun 2011
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    Campbell River, BC, CA
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    Default Re: Dead outs

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    I find a couple each spring that apparently went queenless during the winter. In most cases they have a decent population when I find them in spring. I can usually give them a new queen and they recover. Admittedly, my climate is considerably different than the op but it is only December, so I wouldn’t expect an otherwise healthy colony to collapse simply because the queen failed.
    We start the spring feeding program in February, but dont start lifting frames till late March unless a colony shows a reason to look deeper.

    When we do our first look down into the brood, it's not unusual to find one or two either queenless or drone layers. This is why we started keeping spare queens in mating nucs for the winter. We wont be able to get replacement queens till late April, so having spares in late March is worth the effort.

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  3. #22

    Default Re: Dead outs

    Quote Originally Posted by Sickdog5 View Post
    Very small cluster. All the rest of bees were dead on Bottom board.
    Mites, starvation or some combination of the two would be my guess.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  4. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    Colorado Springs, CO United States
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    Default Re: Dead outs

    Quote Originally Posted by Sickdog5 View Post
    No sign of queen in either. The one in the pic below had no brood. Very small cluster. All the rest of bees were dead on Bottom board. Lot of empty cells with no honey in it. Her is a picture of the cluster.
    Are you sure that wasn’t her head on the far right, next to those two or so outer bees? No way if that was the only side/frame of a “cluster”, would they be able to survive...
    Please excuse me, I am now free to go manage & treat ;)
    my ladies the best way I know how.

  5. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    Northern Lower Michigan, USA
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    813

    Default Re: Dead outs

    Quote Originally Posted by Sickdog5 View Post
    No sign of queen in either. The one in the pic below had no brood. The other had un emerged brood in it. Very small cluster. All the rest of bees were dead on Bottom board. Lot of empty cells with no honey in it. Her is a picture of the cluster.
    2 attempts on that frame to make a queen. around 12 o'clock and at 3:00 o'clock if you center just right of the cluster.
    GG

  6. #25
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    Jun 2016
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    Fultonville,New York,USA
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    711

    Default

    What would you guys do with the pollen from the dead outs ? Is it still good?

  7. #26
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    Feb 2012
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    Colorado Springs, CO United States
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    Default Re: Dead outs

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    2 attempts on that frame to make a queen. around 12 o'clock and at 3:00 o'clock if you center just right of the cluster. GG
    Could be, but those just look like cups to me. Am I the only one that thinks I see the queen’s head Sickdog5, I would protect those frames from wax moths & rodents like they were gold. Depending on your Winter, One of the easiest ways is to clean out all/any of the dead bees and seal the set up with hardware cloth (#8) until Spring, so no bees or mice can enter. However, as soon as you no longer have freezing nights, Wax moths may find a way in..
    Last edited by fieldsofnaturalhoney; 12-26-2019 at 09:58 PM. Reason: Size;)
    Please excuse me, I am now free to go manage & treat ;)
    my ladies the best way I know how.

  8. #27
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    Oct 2016
    Location
    Albany NY
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    How long were they queenless? The 12 o'clock one GG points out looks like emerged emergency cell. The other one (3 oclock) not so much. If queenless long maybe that's why. If queenless short: what was mite protocol? A healthy colony would not have that small of a cluster. How big was it / was that just some stuck bees on an outside frame?
    Save your comb. Moldy pollen they clean up in spring. Comb is what keeps your overwintered colonies from swarming. Keep it rodent proof. And bee proof if you want to control who gets the honey. Wax moths only show up here in upstate NY after spring swarm season. Out combs are fine outside until mid June or later. Good luck!

  9. #28
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    Jun 2016
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    Fultonville,New York,USA
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    711

    Default Re: Dead outs

    Did a mite wash 14 mites counted exactly on both dead outs. That's with 3/4 cup of bee's for each sample.

  10. #29
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    Oct 2016
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    Albany NY
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    I assume there were more mites on the bees on the bottom board and on the bottom board. Did you wash those?
    Or if they've been dwindling for a while because queenless long. The one colony I believe you said had capped brood. I assume worker, indicating that that was queen right a couple weeks before they died and that there are likely a bunch more mites on there. I can't remember if you said but when did you treat and what were the drops and washes afterwards?

  11. #30

    Default Re: Dead outs

    I don’t have any confidence in mite washes on dead bees.
    Do you figure that when the bee dies….the mite continues to hang on? I’ve never done an alcohol wash on a deadout. I can’t imagine it would give meaningful results. A bee colony is a super organism with mites, the mites responding to the components that affect them. For example, if you collect returning foragers and wash them and compare that result with a wash of brood nurse bees from the same colony the results will be substantially different.
    Once the super organism is dead, I don’t believe that there is any way to predict where the mites will end up.
    Just my opinion.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  12. #31
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    Apr 2017
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    Aylett, Virginia
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    Default Re: Dead outs

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Once the super organism is dead, I don’t believe that there is any way to predict where the mites will end up.
    Just my opinion.
    I predict they will all end up in my other hives.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  13. #32

    Default Re: Dead outs

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    I predict they will all end up in my other hives.
    Much of the time....but...maybe not so much in December.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  14. #33
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    Oct 2016
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    Albany NY
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    Agreed not a good prediction. But unlikely that there are only 14 mites in a colony that looks like that in December if it had been robust before. Similarly a mite count is not always a good prediction of how the bees respond to the mites. Meaning a low count for some colonies might be deadly for others. Also not a good prediction of virus load. A few mites with nasty virus is going to be worse than several without. So what I was trying to indicate is that the 14 mites the op found were not the root. However, based on what I've understood from his process and results (still some gaps to fill in), the biggest culprit was likely mites.
    Just my opinion but I believe that a slightly worse case of mites than op had would be counted as ccd. (Meaning if they all died when it was still warm enough to fly out of the hive it would have been empty.) But ssshhhh, otherwise many people's elap insurance payments will go down....

  15. #34
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    Jun 2011
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    Campbell River, BC, CA
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    Default Re: Dead outs

    When did you last see drone brood in the hives in question ?

    ================
    But the averages suggest, you can set your clock starting at the time your bees stop raising drones. Count ahead 2 brood cycles, and the colony will look strong, lots of bees coming and going, nothing to worry about. But that's exactly the time the perfect storm of bee deaths due to mite infestation starts to accelerate and manifest itself in the form of a hive that crashes from 'looks strong, going to be a good cluster for the winter' into 'no bees left' just two or three weeks later.
    ================

    Taken from https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...f-a-mite-crash

    If the acceleration of die off due to mites starts when it's to cold for bees to fly regularly, then you end up with a big pile of dead wet bees on the bottom board.

  16. #35
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Somerset, NJ
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    346

    Default Re: Dead outs

    Quote Originally Posted by Sickdog5 View Post
    Did a mite wash 14 mites counted exactly on both dead outs. That's with 3/4 cup of bee's for each sample.
    This is 14 count per 3/4 cup, not for whole hive. This translates to 9 bees per standard 1/2 cup wash. This seems high.
    Last edited by jonsl; 01-04-2020 at 07:35 PM. Reason: Grammar correction.

  17. #36
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    Jan 2013
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    Lumpkin County, GA
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    875

    Default Re: Dead outs

    Quote Originally Posted by Sickdog5 View Post
    Did a mite wash 14 mites counted exactly on both dead outs. That's with 3/4 cup of bee's for each sample.
    What, if any, was your mite treatment?

  18. #37
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Albany NY
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    168

    Default

    Good point jonsl. I need to read more carefully.

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