Fed water droplets/ landing board- they went nuts - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Fed water droplets/ landing board- they went nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by LAlldredge View Post
    That was interesting. I didn’t see any top entrances on his hives either. Do you have plastic covers over your frames?
    He has dry winter/sunflower honey to winter on.

    I don't now (have plastic covers) since relative humidity here is high - enough condensation as is.
    But I will place plastic at end of winter/early spring - once the brooding starts, water needs grow a lot (while my spring is usually too cold to be flying around).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Fed water droplets/ landing board- they went nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Start watching at 12:45 - wintering under plastic film and on the thick, crystallized honey (sunflower) - water is welcome (else the bees will die of hunger and thirst).
    Six over six - double Dadants.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GutgIHAXHy0
    Really interesting to see his set up. Apparently, the moisture in the hives works well for them as they were thriving. I love the idea of seeing them so easily with little disruption. Thank you.

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Fed water droplets/ landing board- they went nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Durhamblakes View Post
    Really interesting to see his set up. Apparently, the moisture in the hives works well for them as they were thriving. I love the idea of seeing them so easily with little disruption. Thank you.
    I did not see any snow so maybe he is in the same zone as Tn Ky type area. looks like he winters 6 over 6 interesting, seems some moisture is ok even maybe advisable.
    GG

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Fed water droplets/ landing board- they went nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    I did not see any snow so maybe he is in the same zone as Tn Ky type area. looks like he winters 6 over 6 interesting, seems some moisture is ok even maybe advisable.
    GG
    He is near Kharkov, Ukraine (Zone 5 for us) - generally similar to WI/MI.
    So it is colder than may appear.
    It is just the winter this season is starting terrible - December was TOO warm everywhere.

    In fact, until last night, we have had no snow.
    The winter started on October 31 here and lasted about 3-4 weeks.
    Then the fall resumed.
    December and November flipped about this year.

    Yes, many people reconfigure to winter 5x5 or 6x6 (plus air pockets) - this way there is a tall vertical stack for the bees to move up.
    With standard boxes and air pockets on both sides - the issue becomes to recapture moisture, NOT to dissipate the moisture.
    Same with me - having air pockets excessive moisture is never an issue.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  6. #25

    Default Re: Fed water droplets/ landing board- they went nuts

    The problem with humidity sensors is that they are strongly affected by temperature.

    Air that has 100% relative humidity at 32F (0C) will only have 15% relative humidity at 68F (20C).

    With the severe temperature gradients in the hive, meaningful measurements are difficult.

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Fed water droplets/ landing board- they went nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by A Novice View Post
    The problem with humidity sensors is that they are strongly affected by temperature.

    Air that has 100% relative humidity at 32F (0C) will only have 15% relative humidity at 68F (20C).

    With the severe temperature gradients in the hive, meaningful measurements are difficult.
    That is why you measure above the inner cover (soft cover for me) - a good strategic location.
    A single point tells me all I need to know.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Fed water droplets/ landing board- they went nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    He is near Kharkov, Ukraine (Zone 5 for us) - generally similar to WI/MI.
    So it is colder than may appear.
    It is just the winter this season is starting terrible - December was TOO warm everywhere.

    In fact, until last night, we have had no snow.
    The winter started on October 31 here and lasted about 3-4 weeks.
    Then the fall resumed.
    December and November flipped about this year.

    Yes, many people reconfigure to winter 5x5 or 6x6 (plus air pockets) - this way there is a tall vertical stack for the bees to move up.
    With standard boxes and air pockets on both sides - the issue becomes to recapture moisture, NOT to dissipate the moisture.
    Same with me - having air pockets excessive moisture is never an issue.
    Hmmm I may try to convert a couple 10 over 10 next year to 7X7X7 with the plastic and follower boards, seems to work for them.
    so in a 3 box high would the plastic only cover the top box as far as draping down the side? Also seen he had 2 sticks on the top to hold the cover up for a 20 inch by 3/8 top opening, so micro climate is moist , macro is ventilated. I often Nadir a super under, to lift the cluster off the bottom board a bit, Igloo effect, normally a wet super, post extraction.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Fed water droplets/ landing board- they went nuts

    " the issue becomes to recapture moisture, " finally I find beekeepers able to observe hive moisture from a different viewpoint! I am a believer. I am in my third year of insulated not top vents with cold bottom or thermal gradients in my hives. There are a lot of variations one can try so I am evolving with limited instrumentation and observations. I have made two changes this year for practical reasons.
    First I built 5 sided XPS foam boxes which easily slide on and off / over my standardized winter ( and summer) brood chambers. This versus screw-on panels which were a pain. This leaves a variable 1/2 - 3/4 inch air gap around four sides - bottom vented for now. The top now has doubled in R value as I put the summer XPS top off the box also; R10+ sides, R20+ top, cold bottom. This also eliminates the issue of a Nor'easter driving water through the top cover joints when I had a removable insulated top.

    Second, I added a 2-inch spacer on top of my duck cloth inner cover to install my weather station sensor, cotton tee shirts, shavings and emergency feeding if necessary ( not needed anymore). Contrary to a prior year when I created a void above the cluster to measure temp+humidity in which i saw definite signs of humidity RH system regulation I now see what is saturation -99%, and damp tee-shirts.

    It seems I have created what may be the equivalent of a tree-like top area. Water vapor apparently penetrates the heavily propolized duck cloth. Condensates do not appear to dribble back through, nor collect in quantity as << 1 TBSP above duck cloth observed. It seems I am capturing moisture and it is being returned below or lost through the wood spacer via vapor pressure differences. This has been going on for a while during really damp cold weather all of December with some snow now without killing bees. On sunny days I see the RH reading drop a few percentage points - obviously the hive is pumping out moisture. I have a few winter variations I will attempt to implement. Oh - the hives warmed up internally when the insulation was added - bees like a cozy internal hive temperature - air temp. at top is 55-60F with external ambients ranging from below freezing at night to 42 during the day. It will get much colder now, I hope.

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Fed water droplets/ landing board- they went nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    Hmmm I may try to convert a couple 10 over 10 next year to 7X7X7 with the plastic and follower boards, seems to work for them.
    so in a 3 box high would the plastic only cover the top box as far as draping down the side? Also seen he had 2 sticks on the top to hold the cover up for a 20 inch by 3/8 top opening, so micro climate is moist , macro is ventilated. I often Nadir a super under, to lift the cluster off the bottom board a bit, Igloo effect, normally a wet super, post extraction.
    Yes.
    You create near-impassable dome for the moisture/air (there are still small gaps on both frame ends for some moisture/air to escape).

    The end-boards/air-pockets create enough empty volume for excess moisture to dissipate (water vapor pressure to average out across the hive).

    The video demonstrates really well how the film immediately above the cluster is dry (heated by the non-stop stream of warm exhaust hitting the film).
    The film on the margins (NOT above the cluster) captures the cooled exhaust and condenses the water.

    All this talk about the water dripping back has to do with
    1)the condensation surface situated TOO far above the bees (and hence the warm exhaust dissipates and cools before hitting the surface) - compare that to the film placed immediately on the frame tops - more targeted flow of the exhaust
    and/or
    2)the surface mass being TOO great for the bee exhaust to warm it (the standard commercial inner cover) - compare that to near-zero mass of the film - it takes very little energy to warm it up and thus prevent condensation
    Last edited by GregV; 01-02-2020 at 10:14 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Fed water droplets/ landing board- they went nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Holcombe View Post
    " the issue becomes to recapture moisture, " finally I find beekeepers able to observe hive moisture from a different viewpoint! I am a believer.....
    As soon you realize that the generic commercial equipment and the methods are not your only choice (and start investigating for yourself) - you'll see how many (most?) so-called issues are really self-made, artificial issues.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Fed water droplets/ landing board- they went nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Holcombe View Post
    - bees like a cozy internal hive temperature - air temp. at top is 55-60F with external ambients ranging from below freezing at night to 42 during the day. It will get much colder now, I hope.
    My two backyard nucs register above cluster 4C (40F) and 7C (45F) as of this morning 2C (35F).
    This is about optimal for me - if they run much warmer than that - they burn more energy/stores/longevity.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Fed water droplets/ landing board- they went nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Holcombe View Post
    ...... - bees like a cozy internal hive temperature - air temp. at top is 55-60F with external ambients ranging from below freezing at night to 42 during the day. It will get much colder now, I hope.
    OR maybe bees like it cool?

    Go here and start watching at about 2:30 (Ivanovo-Frankivsk region; Ukraine - USDA zone 5/6; narrow-tall Ukrainian frame under single sheet of fabric - not insulated covers)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdfui8toPbg
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Fed water droplets/ landing board- they went nuts

    GregV - Will do - youtube. Cozy could mean cool as I like it cozy cold when working outside. Meanwhile in my apiary today, 44F, sunny and finally a dry day, nine colonies were flying in quantity. Still no ice on the ponds. While cleaning up a bit I suddenly realized I had stumble onto foraging bees, foraging in my bird bath! These are the same bees with RH values ranging from 77% to 99% in an upper hive monitoring chamber. Apparently sufficient time has passed, temperature variation have been small such the bees are able adjust to the installation of insulation boxes. Three monitored hives have consistent values within 5F of each other, 55F, 59 F and 60F; higher values go with bigger colonies doing more or sensor error so it seems. RH in the location continues high at 99%, 99% and 77% respectively with low variations for the past week but increased significantly with addition of insulation boxes.

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Fed water droplets/ landing board- they went nuts

    "Go here and start watching at about 2:30" - watched all three youtubes. I loved seeing the water drops between frames. Do you get an english translation? Note as he often adds layers of fabric and some big hives have insulation built into the hinged cover - I think. I kind of liked the air circulation over the top - maybe. I think I am too cheap using old cotton tee-shirts. There is clearly a difference in humidity performance and behavior (I think) in my hives with and without a buffer cavity above the cluster.

    One thing I ntoiced is that my bees lay down more propolis and actually build supports to lift my 12 ox. duck cloth above the frames with what could be interpreted to be air circulation paths across frames. THe path ways are erratic, even seemingly intentional. Could they be boundary layer tripping and creating turbulence?

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Fed water droplets/ landing board- they went nuts

    burning energy - I do not quite understand that aspect yet. Look at the bees metabolic cure and note the inflection point at 40-42 F ( meaning internal hive air ambient I think). The bee burn more on either side. As I said earlier, colder is survival, warmer is life activities. More to go - looking/thinking about building a hive oriented RH - temp sensor based on an accurate Swiss RH - temp sensor element amongst other things. Real winter is coming......

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Fed water droplets/ landing board- they went nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Holcombe View Post
    burning energy - I do not quite understand that aspect yet. Look at the bees metabolic cure and note the inflection point at 40-42 F ( meaning internal hive air ambient I think). The bee burn more on either side. As I said earlier, colder is survival, warmer is life activities. More to go - looking/thinking about building a hive oriented RH - temp sensor based on an accurate Swiss RH - temp sensor element amongst other things. Real winter is coming......
    A common refrigerator regime is the best (about 35-40F ambient) - not too cold; not too work - steady cool is the optimum.

    For example, recent December temps in my area - up to 50 and 60 some days only meant - bees were too active and burning stores and burning their longevity for no useful reasons.
    Excessive activity in December - not good.
    We will need that bee longevity in February and March, and April.

    Too cold - that one is obvious.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Fed water droplets/ landing board- they went nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Holcombe View Post
    "Go here and start watching at about 2:30" - watched all three youtubes. I loved seeing the water drops between frames. Do you get an english translation? Note as he often adds layers of fabric and some big hives have insulation built into the hinged cover - I think. I kind of liked the air circulation over the top - maybe. I think I am too cheap using old cotton tee-shirts. There is clearly a difference in humidity performance and behavior (I think) in my hives with and without a buffer cavity above the cluster.

    One thing I ntoiced is that my bees lay down more propolis and actually build supports to lift my 12 ox. duck cloth above the frames with what could be interpreted to be air circulation paths across frames. THe path ways are erratic, even seemingly intentional. Could they be boundary layer tripping and creating turbulence?
    Unfortunately, no subs on this channel.

    The lids are not insulated - just planks and ventilation slits.
    He also demonstrated this; I will not look for that video, was sometimes in December.
    Look at the hinged lids - 2:10, etc.
    Look at the telescopic lids - 5:55, etc
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdfui8toPbg

    So much for the story of "dripping" condensed water for this fellow.

    To be clear - at about Feb 15th, this beekeeper will go around and install blankets - so to promote brooding start.
    At that time the lids could also take supplemental foam inserts.
    I am pretty sure he runs the foam inserts through the summer.
    I have seen them in his hinged lids.
    Last edited by GregV; 01-02-2020 at 09:07 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Fed water droplets/ landing board- they went nuts

    GregV - "For example, recent December temps in my area - up to 50 and 60 some days only meant - bees were too active and burning stores and burning their longevity for no useful reasons.
    Excessive activity in December - not good.
    We will need that bee longevity in February and March, and April"

    I have heard this comment since I started beekeeping 4 winters ago. I recognize that all winter storage sites I have read about use the 40F ambient to minimize activities including cleansing flight suppression. I have not seen or read a single test report addressing all the important variables and relationships to wintering bees. Mitchell is certainly doing a good job of bounding the problem or system.

    I am still trying to establish what is important by shotgunning the issues. One thing I am now clear on - winter condensation is important to the bees. With a little technical common sense it is not an issue. Second thing is heat loss or conservation of energy - the whole reason for bees storing honey and pollen.

    A more difficult issue is winter hive activity( leaving out all the disease issues). Freezing weather low internal hive temperature and RH conditions plus CO2 issues result in a tight cluster, flexing muscles with limited bee activities, honey temperatures lowering, water freezing and CO2 venting out the cluster bottom(?) - mainly survival mode. A wasted effort or are we unaware that more is done? The metabolic curve ( Seeley) implies it is simply efforts to maintain a 57F body temperature or the bees enter the dying, hyperthermia zone.

    On the warmer side, it is clear to me from my simple measurement techniques that when hive activity picks up - it really picks up. Top-of-hive temperatures rise dramatically even in cold or freezing weather of late Feb.; jumps with first natural pollen arriving. This provides an early strong force of foragers for the early Spring flow. Normal warm hive activities seem to be a much lower level of winter bee replacement / brood rearing - replacing part of the daily bee loss? Strong healthy colonies seem to be nearly always raising brood, controlling RH and keeong honey warm - a good thing(?).

    My answer to winter hive activity consumption is to assure honey reserves. I feed enough syrup converted to honey in the Fall to support both winter survival AND Spring build-up (possibly feeding in the Spring before the flow when I screwed up). Insulated boxes help bee activity all winter - a good thing and enables bees to control their environment.

    I like numbers and follow Palmer's suggestion to weigh hives in the Fall - it works ( except when the scale breaks). I mentor three other hobby beekeepers and all three had low hive weights using the heft and/or observation method. Only one out of 14 hives was up to weight using a scale. Hope this all make sense.

  20. #39
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    Default Re: Fed water droplets/ landing board- they went nuts

    What are the other frames with top screws? Insulation follower boards? Feeders? I think he has felt/wool blankets above a cotton or synthetic piece of cloth - no stick in some cases.

    I am beginning to believe the old double box system with "packing" was both an insulating system and moisture control / buffer system. Packing and pine wooden boxes act like a buffer could absorb water and feed it back by vapor pressure or condensate.

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Fed water droplets/ landing board- they went nuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Holcombe View Post
    burning energy - I do not quite understand that aspect yet. Look at the bees metabolic cure and note the inflection point at 40-42 F ( meaning internal hive air ambient I think). The bee burn more on either side. As I said earlier, colder is survival, warmer is life activities. More to go - looking/thinking about building a hive oriented RH - temp sensor based on an accurate Swiss RH - temp sensor element amongst other things. Real winter is coming......
    There seems to be quite a consensus that the temperature of the building be kept ~ the 40F figure. I would suggest that that would result in a higher actual temperature adjacent to and above the cluster. If there are many hives, cooling the building is required. It would be nice to know for certain what actual temperature inside the hive results in the lowest metabolic state.

    I have wondered sometimes if I were actually putting my wraps and insulation on too early. Late Oct. seemed to be right timing this year until it shot up and has been freezing or above all of December. Maybe some means of opening waste air within layers of insulation or some other variable means of easily adjusting. Maybe that fine of tuning is chasing diminishing returns though.

    Robert, have you described what your 5 side insulation is constructed and how easily it is to off and on? My present hodge podge is way too much trouble in that respect.
    Frank

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