TIN FOIL HAT or REALITY? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: TIN FOIL HAT or REALITY?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    In a virtually oppressed society - clog the pipelines with the huge volumes of the "approved content" - so that any alternative media (while totally legal) - is hardly visible and hardly findable and, thus, is not consumed - done.
    Interesting observation Greg, couple of examples come to mind.

    Back when Russia backed forces shot down a passenger plane over Ukraine killing hundreds of innocents, the Russian media came out with multiple alternative theories about what happened. Some of them were so bizzare you would have to wonder how anyone would find them credible, yet government propagandists just kept pumping more theories out. It did not matter that they could not all be true. How i saw it, was by pumping out multiple versions of what supposedly happened, it made the real version into just one more story among the masses.

    Likewise, with the recent killing by US forces of ISIS leader Baghdadi, the Russian media came out with a whole bunch of arguments why it could not be true, or casting doubt on it. One that surprised me was they said there has already been multiple claims at various times that he has been killed. This was self depreciating, as it was Russia itself that had made those false claims. But none of that seemed to matter to the propagandists. And all this despite that they must have surely known that the truth would eventually be verified.

    A link to one article, but each article only proposes a few of the reason put forth by Russian govt. why they said the US was lying. https://edition.cnn.com/politics/liv...35a29aac4e9eec
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: TIN FOIL HAT or REALITY?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Interesting observation Greg, couple of examples come to mind.

    Back when Russia backed forces shot down a passenger plane over Ukraine killing hundreds of innocents, the Russian media came out with multiple alternative theories about what happened. Some of them were so bizzare you would have to wonder how anyone would find them credible, yet government propagandists just kept pumping more theories out. It did not matter that they could not all be true. How i saw it, was by pumping out multiple versions of what supposedly happened, it made the real version into just one more story among the masses.

    Likewise, with the recent killing by US forces of ISIS leader Baghdadi, the Russian media came out with a whole bunch of arguments why it could not be true, or casting doubt on it. One that surprised me was they said there has already been multiple claims at various times that he has been killed. This was self depreciating, as it was Russia itself that had made those false claims. But none of that seemed to matter to the propagandists. And all this despite that they must have surely known that the truth would eventually be verified.

    A link to one article, but each article only proposes a few of the reason put forth by Russian govt. why they said the US was lying. https://edition.cnn.com/politics/liv...35a29aac4e9eec
    Exactly.
    In theory, Russia enjoys full democracy.


    Guess, CIA has been employing the same tactic globally for eons.
    But the KGB did the same.
    So unsure who taught who.

    Well, the former star of the reality TV show "Apprentice" has been great at the content generation.
    I used to watch the darn show as a novelty back then and thought it was a fun show (until it wasn't anymore).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  4. #23
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    Default Re: TIN FOIL HAT or REALITY?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    the former star of the reality TV show "Apprentice" has been great at the content generation.
    Indeed. A master at obfuscation.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  5. #24
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    Default Re: TIN FOIL HAT or REALITY?

    What we are talking about------ misinformation serving greed and selfishness is good old human nature on display. We are just getting better at it. The most glaring examples are probably not as bad as the more subtle but insidious forms. I dislike symbolism as it is so powerful and easily abused. Patriotism if harnessed is an example. No one dares question patriotism, right? That was one tactic that Edward Bernays was known to manipulate. Men will follow a flag or the piper into the face of hell and have done so many times to defend some old idiots wounded egos!

    Thorstein Veblens an American author had some interesting literature about "invidious consumption"; a tongue in cheep exposure of how we are coerced into spending for show. The more frivolous, obviously unproductive and expensive an activity the more it showed how privileged and deserving it made you appear.

    One of Shakespeares charaters in the part of a Roman emperor mouthed the words, Give them bread and circuses and they wont notice what you are doing! They had their gladiators in the coliseums and today we have football, Nascar and the Olympics!

    This is nothing new. Not much use us wringing our hands about it. I have come to think that the best thing is to acknowledge it for what it is and then decide how you can best avoid being affected by or drawn into it.
    Frank

  6. #25
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    Default Re: TIN FOIL HAT or REALITY?

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    ......Patriotism if harnessed is an example. No one dares question patriotism, right? .
    Said Mikhail Saltykov-Shchedrin - "They started the talks of patriotism. Evidently, wanting to steal something."

    Заговорили о патриотизме. Как видно, украсть что-то хотят (М.Е. Салтыков-Щедрин)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhai...ykov-Shchedrin
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  7. #26
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    Default Re: TIN FOIL HAT or REALITY?

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    ...... Give them bread and circuses and they wont notice what you are doing! ........
    And keep them un-educated.

    About "the bread and the circuses" - World History, 5th grade, page 269.
    http://11book.ru/5-klass/264-istoriy...-klass-vigasin

    I am yet to see a decent history course for the kids (with a good book!).
    Not used in the US.
    I guess - deemed unnecessary.
    The basic World history is just not taught here.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  8. #27
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    Default Re: TIN FOIL HAT or REALITY?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    And keep them un-educated.

    About "the bread and the circuses" - World History, 5th grade, page 269.
    http://11book.ru/5-klass/264-istoriy...-klass-vigasin

    I am yet to see a decent history course for the kids (with a good book!).
    Not used in the US.
    I guess - deemed unnecessary.
    The basic World history is just not taught here.
    not taught on purpose. if history is not clear then the line "greedy European Rebels who raided the country for their own gain" can be said in school to describe the first Americans, and the kids have nothing to compare it to. If history is clear it cannot be re written.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: TIN FOIL HAT or REALITY?

    "In Russia the Putin-approved sources are clogging the pipelines."

    Not just in Russia.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  10. #29
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    Default Re: TIN FOIL HAT or REALITY?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post
    "In Russia the Putin-approved sources are clogging the pipelines."

    Not just in Russia.
    Actually, true.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  11. #30
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    Default Re: TIN FOIL HAT or REALITY?

    We really should establish that there is a difference between education and conditioning. Quality education should stress creative thinking, logic, and recognizing the concept of confirmation bias and vested interest in both our own, and others thinking. A lot of what is presented amounts to little more than dogma. Now here I am guilty of overstating and worst case scenario but I think most people would agree that education could do more to prepare students for the real world they will face.

    Most every country has written and fancied up their own history story books for the young and impressionable. Recently there is a bit more awareness of the evils of empires and colonialism but with the new communications revolution exploitation has taken a new form with global level power players. Singing kumbiya does not phase it!
    Frank

  12. #31
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    Default Re: TIN FOIL HAT or REALITY?

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    We really should establish that there is a difference between education and conditioning. ........
    Go ahead.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  13. #32
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    Default Re: TIN FOIL HAT or REALITY?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Go ahead.
    Done! By executive decree, unless you can suggest otherwise.
    Frank

  14. #33
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    Default Re: TIN FOIL HAT or REALITY?

    " We really should establish that there is a difference between education and conditioning."

    In my life time I have see the definitions applied in real time. Conditioning is not easily understood or identified by many, education is not always desired.

    Hoep it makes sense.

  15. #34
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    Default Re: TIN FOIL HAT or REALITY?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Holcombe View Post
    " We really should establish that there is a difference between education and conditioning."

    In my life time I have see the definitions applied in real time. Conditioning is not easily understood or identified by many, education is not always desired.

    Hoep it makes sense.
    + 1 agree, to be able to spot it is the first step.......

  16. #35
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    Default Re: TIN FOIL HAT or REALITY?

    We may not all be feeling the same meaning of the terms. I consider education to be closer to truth and thus beneficial.

    In hindsight I would substitute programming for word conditioning. I see programming to have negative connotations; acceptance with out questioning.

    With the interpretation removed, I think we are probably in agreement.

    Edit: Agree with Gray Goose; the key is knowing the difference. Critical thinking!
    Frank

  17. #36
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    Default Re: TIN FOIL HAT or REALITY?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Holcombe View Post
    " We really should establish that there is a difference between education and conditioning."

    In my life time I have see the definitions applied in real time. Conditioning is not easily understood or identified by many, education is not always desired.

    Hoep it makes sense.
    So what are the clear and understandable definitions for each?
    With examples.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  18. #37
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    Default Re: TIN FOIL HAT or REALITY?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    So what are the clear and understandable definitions for each?
    With examples.
    That is a tall order indeed. Behavioral pshychology is a lifetime study.

    For me the difference is between learning by examining controlling factors, assessing their affects and weighing the consequences, as opposed to being programmed or conditioned to accept without questioning. The latter often depends on such tactics as developing a reverence for authority figures, dogmatic loyalty to philosophical concepts etc. Those inputs can be very subtle but powerful.

    Once a person has been conditioned to unquestioning loyalty to a group, his symbolic loyalty is a handle that makes him easy to steer. That is only one example of many ways of manipulation. Critical thinking could help inoculate a person against some of the most insidious.
    Frank

  19. #38
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    Default Re: TIN FOIL HAT or REALITY?

    Less so these days, but a few years ago we used to see a lot of examples of conditioning rather than education, right here on Beesource.

    New members would crop up who had read internet articles promoting a particular hive type, or management method. The articles they read would typically also be critical of "mainstream" hive designs or management methods. The articles would appear to be educational but would really be conditioning.

    Because by the time this person made their way to Beesource, they were convinced by the persuasiveness of the author they had read, of the "rightness" of the particular hive design or management method, and the "wrongness" or even "ignorance" of everyone else.

    And so these user names would show up here, roundly condemning everyone else and speaking with great authority. After a while it would transpire they did not even have their first hive yet, and in fact had never even opened a real beehive.

    This scenario was a regular occurance here a few years ago but now has faded away. I think it is because with the dawn of the internet there was a crop of this literature, and it's followers. Who then got bees but the process of reaching complete failure and leaving the hobby, and Beesource, could have taken several seasons.

    The internet had not been around long enough, for everybody to have discovered that not everything on it, was true.

    I don't actually blame those people, in my view they were keen and genuine people, who were beguiled by cleverly constructed articles. Had they first stumbled upon more mainstream type articles and applied that knowledge to their beekeeping, they might still be with us.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  20. #39
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    Default Re: TIN FOIL HAT or REALITY?

    Many people today dont know where the expression "Drinking the Koolaid" came from. The Jonestown affair is an extreme example of manipulation of people.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown

    Some examples in history, if all the facts be known, undoubtedly caused much more death and suffering.
    Frank

  21. #40
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    Default

    As the late Abraham Lincoln once said: "Not everything you read on the internet is true."

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